[Shadowfax]

I had been reading much about the Chu Han Contention. I remember Xiang Yu had once sent a persuasive talker, Wu She, to persuade Han Xin to turn against Liu Bang, or just leave Liu Bang and stay neutral. Han Xin refused. Even Han Xin's advisor adviced him to revolt against Liu Bang and make himself a king of his conquered land. However, Han Xin still refused his advice. Han Xin at the time had conquerered most of northern China.

What if Han Xin revolted against Liu Bang, or just stay neutral while Xiang Yu fights Liu Bang? :o

I think the Chu Han Contention may 1)briefly become another Three Kingdom Period with Han Xin in the north, Liu Bang in the west, and Xiang Yu in the east. Then, after a while Liu Bang still unified China and created the Han Dynasty. Or 2)Han Xin would win and we now have a Qi Dynasty 齊朝 instead of Han.

1)It may become another Three Kingdom period since neither Liu Bang nor Xiang Yu was able to defeat the other in a short period of time. After a while they probably will make some kind of alliance in order to get rid of Han Xin first, just like in Shu and Wu in the Three Kingdom. Han Xin would lose to the allied force and then Han started fighting with Chu again, and Liu Bang would still win because he had all the capable stategist and generals on his side. :lol:

2)Han Xin quickly defeats Liu Bang or Xiang Yu (more likely) and then start a war with the other. He won with his military genius.

What do you think?

[Sephodwyrm]

I don't think that Han Xin would want to revolt. If Han Xin did revolt, he would be the weatkest of all 3, and plus his prestige isn't that great either. Liu Bang and Xiang Yu both had sizeable support. Plus, Han Xin could hold on to his territories because he was flying the Han banner and would surely lose a lot of territories if he decide to revolt. Not to mention that many of Han Xin's subordinates were still loyal to Liu Bang and not to Han Xin. The only opportunity that Han Xin may have in revolting would be when he was made the king of Chu after defeating Xiang Yu at Gai Xia. But Han Xin did not seize the opportunity and the time when he really tried to revolt was when he was made the marquis of Huai Yin. And that's when he fell into Chen Ping and Empress Lu's trap.

[Ghost_of_Han]

Personally I thing Xiang Yu, would have ended up winning. I don't think Liu Bang, was that strong of a millitary mind.

[Sephodwyrm]

Xiang Yu would never win. If Han Xin does revolt, I think Han Xin would likely be the absolute winner. But Han Xin doesn't have that ambition or charisma.

[Shadowfax]

I agree Xiang Yu would never have won.

Until this stage in Chu Han Contention, Liu Bang controls Guan Zhong 關中, Han Zhong 漢中, and Han 韓, which is pretty much most of the territory of Qin during the Warring States Period. Han Xin, who was the chief general of Liu Bang, had conquered Wei 魏，Dai 代, Zhao 趙，Yan 燕，and Qi 齊. The northern part of China consisted of most of these countries. While Xiang Yu at the time was able to control most parts of Chu 楚 and Liang 梁, a lot of his lands were actually occupied by other dukes and Xiang Yu had no direct control over them. Han Xin alone is as strong as Xiang Yu, or even Liu Bang. And he was also Liu Bang's general, so it was almost impossible for Xiang Yu to win the war.

Xiang Yu is a strong field commander, but he's not a good strategist. Thus in Chu Han Contention, even though Xiang Yu won almost every battle he was fighting, but he still ended up losing more lands and troops after every battle he fought. He was also the only good general in Chu, all the others left him because he doesn't listen to advice.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Well... Han xin would not want to rebel, because his force was too weak. Furthermore, he was a loyalist to Liu Bang.

But if he intends to rebel, Liu Bang could easily sent other forces to fight against him. Liu Bang's got other feudal lords such as YingBu and PengYue.

[RollingWave]

I will look it up again... but from what I recall he DID rebel after the Han dynasty was formed.... he and 2 other big general (all 3 had their own fiefdom as part of the early Han system of cutting up parts of the country to the Liu Family and others who helped in bringing the Han up) and they lost (probably cause not enough manpowr) Han Xin was than put under house arrest in Chang An until he was killed by Emperess Lu and Shio Ban....

I may remembered wrong... but i'll look it up again.....

[Shadowfax]

No, Rollingwave, you are right. Han Xin did revolted after Han Dynasty was formed.

Sorry, I didn't make this clear in my first post. :)
I meant to ask what would happened if he revolted during the Chu Han Contention. When Han Xin had conquered Wei 魏，Dai 代, Zhao 趙，Yan 燕，and Qi 齊. And he was the Prince of Qi under Liu Bang.

[RollingWave]

I see :P, well it probably would have turned into a 3 kingdoms situation or desolve into even more kingdoms if that did happen... as Han definately had the power to rival Liu/Xian at that moment (if the men under him are willing to follow of course)

[Zuo Zongtang]

RollingWave, on Jun 16 2004, 03:27 AM, said:

I will look it up again... but from what I recall he DID rebel after the Han dynasty was formed.... he and 2 other big general (all 3 had their own fiefdom as part of the early Han system of cutting up parts of the country to the Liu Family and others who helped in bringing the Han up)  and they lost (probably cause not enough manpowr) Han Xin was than put under house arrest in Chang An until he was killed by Emperess Lu and Shio Ban....

  I may remembered wrong... but i'll look it up again.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are right. The other two generals were Peng Yue and Qing Bu (Ying Bu).

[zaitian]

The rebellion of HanXin is still controversial due to several points brought up by historians. Although "The Book of History"（史记）Shi1 Ji4 and "History of Han"（汉书） Han4 Shu1 both recorded that HanXin died for rebellion.
1. HanXin was recorded in both ShiJi and HanShu for lamenting the famous words ：“狡兔死，走狗烹；禽鸟尽，良弓藏；敌国破，谋臣亡。” (The hound will be consumed upon the demise of the wily hare. The superior bow will be kept away upon the extermination of the flocks. The strategist shall be executed, once the enemy state is conquered) while in captivity in B.C. 201.
2. The person who reported HanXin allerged rebellion was the brother of someone whom HanXin was going to put to death. Even if HanXin were to rebel, that person would be the last person HanXin would share the information to.
3.HanXin was already persuaded to rebel agaisnt Han Kingdom and ally with Chu Kingdom when he was based in Qi. Bearing in mind that during then, he had formidable military support. Why should he wait till he was in ChangAn and was wihtout any military power or backup?
4.When HanXin was recaptured, he was executed in the Bell Room of ChangLe Palace without going on trial. If there were any evidence of his rebellion, the logical way would be to try him in front of the court. His execution was close to an assasination.
5.HanXin was long known to be someone who repay contempt with kindness, and was loyal to the Kingdom of Han.

The above information is adapted from the book "Secrets of LiuBang"（刘邦百谜）co-written by 惠焕章 (Hui HuanZhang) & 杨明喜 (Yang MingXi) published by 陕西旅游出版社 (ShanXi Travel Press).

[AhMan]

I have a more daring if. What if XiangYu had defeated LiuBang and set up a kingdom called Chu?
According a book that I read, the hypothetical Chu kingdom would have been more tolerated to multiracial issue. Maybe China would have developed into a multistatelet country.
In the book i read (called Han remembering Chu), it was the Confucius scholars that forced LiuBang to adopt the imperialist customes and stayed away from common people customs. LiuBang missed Chu culture a lot and he still secretly organized private Chu musical party for himself. Chu ci still survived thanks to LiuBang and his descendant.

[snowybeagle]

AhMan, on Apr 19 2005, 03:10 PM, said:

In the book i read (called Han remembering Chu), it was the Confucius scholars that forced LiuBang to adopt the imperialist customes and stayed away from common people customs. LiuBang missed Chu culture a lot and he still secretly organized private Chu musical party for himself. Chu ci still survived thanks to LiuBang and his descendant.

Can you post more info about that? I have some doubts.

First, Liu Bang was notoriously particular in dealing with Confucianist scholars to show them who's the boss. It was said he even peed into a scholar's hat and made him wear it, just to show he would rule the scholars and not the other way round.

Second, sometime before his death, he revisited his old hometown and danced openly with his clansmen, partying for days.

What was true was that Liu Bang commissioned the scholars to produce a comprehensive set of Court proctocols to make his commanders, who had gotten too familiar with him, to be more respectful of the throne. At the same time, not being highly educated himself, the proctocols were to be simple enough to be remembered.

[AhMan]

Oh, sorry! I could not recall the name of the book now as I read it long time ago. It's about Chu (still looking it up in the library catalogue but it seems to be in vain). The chapter Han remember Chu is the one I wanted to refer to.
Yes, you are correct. Liu Bang was rude and illiterate therefore he loathed Confucius scholars. He wanted to go the way of Chu (i.e. common people) but Confucius scholars refused. They pointed out to him that in order to gain support the population he should follow the way of Confucius.
The part where he came home and sang Chu ci songs with old folks in his village was mentioned too.

[ahbian]

zaitian, on Apr 10 2005, 12:39 AM, said:

The rebellion of HanXin is still controversial due to several points brought up by historians. Although "The Book of History"（史记）Shi1 Ji4 and "History of Han"（汉书） Han4 Shu1 both recorded that HanXin died for rebellion.
1. HanXin was recorded in both ShiJi and HanShu for lamenting the famous words ：“狡兔死，走狗烹；禽鸟尽，良弓藏；敌国破，谋臣亡。” (The hound will be consumed upon the demise of the wily hare. The superior bow will be kept away upon the extermination of the flocks. The strategist shall be executed, once the enemy state is conquered) while in captivity in B.C. 201.
2. The person who reported HanXin allerged rebellion was the brother of someone whom HanXin was going to put to death. Even if HanXin were to rebel, that person would be the last person HanXin would share the information to.
3.HanXin was already persuaded to rebel agaisnt Han Kingdom and ally with Chu Kingdom when he was based in Qi. Bearing in mind that during then, he had formidable military support. Why should he wait till he was in ChangAn and was wihtout any military power or backup?
4.When HanXin was recaptured, he was executed in the Bell Room of ChangLe Palace without going on trial. If there were any evidence of his rebellion, the logical way would be to try him in front of the court. His execution was close to an assasination.
5.HanXin was long known to be someone who repay contempt with kindness, and was loyal to the Kingdom of Han.

The above information is adapted from the book "Secrets of LiuBang"（刘邦百谜）co-written by 惠焕章 (Hui HuanZhang) & 杨明喜 (Yang MingXi) published by 陕西旅游出版社 (ShanXi Travel Press).

yes i think there is 2 schools of thoughts now. some ming dynasty historians claimed that han xin was set up by the empress lu while liu bang was away.