[MengTzu]

Hey all,

In the old All Empires board, I've asked this question, but that board is lost, so I have to ask again. Which historical documents mention that the Sui and Tang emperors were half Han, half Xin Bei?

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

I think, it's more appropriate to say they are 3/4 Xianbei.. sinficized Xianbei (for that tang)

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

Can you please show me some documentations =)

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

For those who want to know about Xianbei's influence on Sui and Tang, there is a good article at

http://www.tanghistory.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp...3&ID=686&page=3

I should translate the part of mentioning Sui and Tang dynasty ruler's genetic into english.

Quote

      公元581年，北周大丞相杨坚废掉周静帝，篡夺鲜卑北周王朝而建立隋朝，他便是中国历史上著名的隋文帝。因此，隋朝实际上是建立在鲜卑国家的基础之上的。中原民族实际上是由鲜卑民族等游牧民族和汉族所组成的混合民族。又由于杨坚篡周建隋，所以鲜卑北周的统治集团也基本上被保留下来。隋朝朝廷充满鲜卑族官员，连隋文帝的独孤皇后都是鲜卑人，独孤皇后是鲜卑大贵族、柱国大将军独孤信的女儿。因此，从隋朝的国家政权的组成和民族的构成上说，鲜卑族的比重极大。从民族成份上讲，隋朝是鲜卑族和汉族共同创造的伟大朝代。

In 581 AD, Northern Zhou's Yang Jian forced Zhou Jindi to abdicate, and established the Sui dynasty. He was Emperor Sui Wendi. The Sui dynasty was built on the foundation of a Xianbei nation. The people of central plain China were actually a mixed ethnic between the Xianbei and the Han people. The Xianbei's regime structure was also preserved. In the Sui court, many of the officials as well as Sui Wendi's wife (Queen Dugu) was also a Xianbei. Queen Dugu was an aristocracy of Xianbei, general Duguxin's daughter. Thus from Sui's political structure, Xianbei's influence was greater. From ethnic composition, Sui is a combined composition between Xianbei and Han .

Quote

      隋炀帝本人就是一个汉族与鲜卑族的混血帝王。他的生母文献独孤皇后，是一个连隋文帝都惧怕的鲜卑悍妇。独孤皇后的家族连她自己在内，先后出过三位皇后和一位皇太后。她的姐姐是北周周明帝的皇后，她的大女儿是周宣帝的皇后，她的从姐妹是唐朝唐高祖李渊的生母。她的鲜卑家族性格刚勇，势力强大，深刻影响了北周、大隋和大唐三个朝代。她在皇宫，后宫不敢给隋文帝送嫔妃，她还敢于杀掉隋文帝看中的女人。在隋文帝时期，中原民族性格强健，文化发达。

Sui Yangdi is a mixed blood emperor between Han and Xianbei. His mother Queen Wenxian Dugu was a Xianbei lady even feared by Sui Wendi. Queen Dugu's family produced 3 queens and 3 Huangtaihou. Her sister wa the queen of Northern Zhou Zhou Mingdi. Her greatest daughter was Zhou Xuandi's Queen. Her sister was the mother of Tang Gaozu Li Yuan. She was a dire-heated lady and cruel, killing all those ladies loved by Sui Wendi.

Quote

      中国人引以为自豪和骄傲的大唐朝，实际上也是鲜卑族和汉族共同创造的一个伟大王朝，是草原狼性格和华夏文明精粹的伟大结晶，达到了古代华夏文明之巅。就像“汉承秦制”那样，唐朝是唐承隋制。李唐王朝继承了隋朝皇族，尤其是隋皇族女系母统的强悍鲜卑性格。从性格血统上，李唐王朝的开国皇帝和初期君主都是胡化了的汉人和鲜卑贵族女性的混血儿。唐高祖李渊的生母、皇后、一个儿媳均为鲜卑人。唐太宗李世民的祖母、生母和皇后是鲜卑人，唐高宗李治的曾祖母、祖母和生母是鲜卑人，而李渊的生母就是大名鼎鼎隋朝独孤皇后的从姐妹。几代连续杂交混血，几代鲜卑家族狼性格的持久影响和熏陶，使李唐家族血统里的汉血比例降到四分之一以下，因此在性格上取得非同寻常的杂交优势。太宗李世民尤为突出，他的骁勇凶猛顽强的狼性性格堪称中国帝王之最。甚至，李家也出过李世民的太子承乾那种学胡语，吃胡食，仰慕突厥狼头军旗、想解发回草原当突厥人的极端例子。后来太子承乾被唐太宗废掉。这个极端例子也证明，李唐家族中的草原民族血统和及其影响极重极深。

The Tang dynasty was also a result of combination of Xianbei and Han , and is a combination between nomadic and chinese civilization. The Tang also inherited the tough nature of Xianbei, esp. from the mother side. From genetics, Li Yuan (the founder of Tang) is a mixed between Xianbeinized Han and Xianbei mother. Li Yuan's mother, queen and a daughter in law are Xianbei. Tang Taizong's Li shimin's grandma, mother and Queen are also Xianbei. Tang Gaozu Li Zhi's Great Grandma, Grandma and Mother are also Xianbei. Li Yuan's mother is a sister of Sui dynasty Queen dugu (a Xianbei). Through several generations of mix blood, reduce the han-blood of the Li family of Tang to only 1/4. That is to say ,they are 1/4 han, 3/4 Xianbei, causing them to have the character of Xianbei. Li Shimin, inherited the War-like nature of Xianbei. Even his son Chenqian also tried to learn the Hu way of eating and even tried to return to the steppes with the turks.

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      汉唐这两个历史上齐名的大朝代，为什么会出现“环肥燕瘦”截然相反的审美标准的呢？原因就在于唐朝皇族与历代华夏朝代的民族血统不同。唐朝“以胖为美”，深刻地反映了李唐王朝鲜卑族的血统和印记。蒙古人以胖为美，被牧民公认为美人的蒙古女人绝大多数是丰满女人。而鲜卑族和蒙古族是两个有着亲缘关系的蒙古草原游牧民族。鲜卑族一定是把狼图腾和“以胖为美”的审美标准，一同传给蒙古族了。唐朝“以胖为美”，恰恰又从民族意识的一个审美层面上证明唐朝之所以那么强悍伟大的性格根源。汉人一直回避唐朝的游牧精神和草原血统，实际上汉人很不情愿把中国最伟大朝代的大半功绩记在草原民族的功劳簿上……

Why is fat regarded as beauty in Tang was a result of this Xianbei influence? Most nomads will regard fat as beauty. The beauties of nomadic Mongols are mostly fat women. Because of Xianbei's influence on Tang, thus Tang regarded fat as beauty.

This post has been edited by General_Zhaoyun: 24 August 2004 - 02:45 AM

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

1) Which site do those come from?

2) Any support for them from, say, the 24 histories?

3) What exactly is a Xianbeized Han?

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

MengTzu, on Aug 24 2004, 02:11 PM, said:

Hey Zhao Yun,

    1) Which site do those come from?

    2) Any support for them from, say, the 24 histories?

    3) What exactly is a Xianbeized Han?

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

1. That site is from a specilised chinese forum on tang history at http://www.tanghistory.com

2. I haven't yet found any info on what you want about 24 histories.. sorry.. if I'm an expert on 24 histories, I could have told you.. but you can try surfing the net. You have to surf the chinese sites. I bet you can't find anything on english sites.

3. A Xianbeinized Han is a han-chinese who has been xianbeinized (i.e. assimilated to be like a Xianbei).. it's the opposite of sinification ..That means, a han-chinese was initially using the han-language, but later due to the Xianbei environment with which he was brought up in, he started using Xianbei language and adopting the Xianbei culture instead of the han. We must understand that during the northern Wei dynasty, Xianbei was the dominant language and culture in north China until the sinification policy by Xiao Wendi. Many han-chinese were converted to Xianbei.

(A good analogy is like some chinese americans today who are brought up in an english language environment in America and had lost their roots and language and instead adopted and use english language as their predominant language. Their blood is chinese , but they had been assimilated to be like an english person. The same goes for han chinese who lost their language and instead uses Xianbei language and culture)

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

I find the context with which that was used in the passage quite odd. It says, "in terms of blood ancestry, Li Yuan and the first kings were descendants of Xianbeized Han and Xianbei mothers," -- being Xianbeized has nothing to do with blood ancestry, so mentioning it seemed superfluous. But I might just be too nitpicky here.

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

What it's trying to say is that there is more Xianbei influence on the Tang, although blood-wise, it's about half-half..

Anyway, we can generalise that most of the mother side of Tang royalty are Xianbei while the male side are a mix or Han ethnic.

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

Where are the Xianbei people now?

Peace,

Michael

8-23-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Xianbei have disappeared into history just like the XiongNu..Tujue I don't think the Xianbei language still survived after the Tang dynasty. All Xianbei people had already been sinificized into han-people or some had been mixed with other minority groups.

You will be surprised that some Xianbei custom are in-corporated into chinese culture.

For instance, during han dynasty and 3 kingdoms era, the han people did not sit on proper chairs and instead tend to sit on the floor pad with their knees capped on the floor. Such is not so comfortable. But after the Xianbei ruled North China during the northern Wei dynasty , they introduced the wooden chair to the chinese and from then on, chinese sits on chair.

Also, riding a horse was not so popular before 3 kingdoms era. The chinese were more used to riding a wagon for transportation, and only the military and the rich have the means to own horses. After Xianbei ruled China, due to their nomadic way of lifestyles, riding horse became very popular as means of transportation. This continued all the way till Tang dynasty, which was influenced by the Xianbei.

In Tang dynasty, riding horses is very common and a fashion and even Emperor rode horses rather than being carried by a "Jiao Zi" (a hand-carried wagon)

[Huochubin]

Also,the surname of Yuven is still often found in China.

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

Do you have documentations showing that some of the Xianbei people had become Han Chinese? Do you mean that the descendants of the Xianbei people are among the Han Chinese today?

Peace,

Michael

8-24-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quote

Do you have documentations showing that some of the Xianbei people had become Han Chinese? Do you mean that the descendants of the Xianbei people are among the Han Chinese today?

The Xianbei do not exist anymore today. Most already been sinificized to become han-chinese largely due to sinification policy carried out during northern Wei period (around 490s AD) by Emperor Xiao Wendi (formerly a Xianbei). The Xianbei language was forbidden, only the han-language allowed and the Xianbei clothing were replaced by han clothing. Their surname were changed from Tuoba (a Xianbei surname) to Yuan (a han surname). By Tang period, although the Xianbei influence is still there, the Xianbei were almost completely sinifized.

There is a good chinese website on the history of people in chinese history at

http://www.meet-grea...n/mzs/mzs29.htm

Below is a quote by Xiao Wendi of Northern Wei regarding the sinification policy

Quote

　　第三，禁鲜卑人着胡服、在朝廷上说鲜卑语，提倡改鲜卑姓为汉姓，定姓族，说汉语，著汉眼，鼓励鲜卑人与汉人通婚。至495年（太和十九年），又令“不得以北俗之语言于朝廷，若有违者，免所居官”①。并云：“今欲断诸北语，一从正音（汉语）。年三十以上，习性已久，容或不可卒革；三十以下，见在朝廷之人，语言不听仍旧。若有故为，当降爵黜官。各宜深戒。如此渐习，风化可新。”②孝文帝还大力提倡著汉服。

Translation:

The wearing of "hu" clothings was banned for all Xianbei. The speaking of Xianbei language was banned in the imperial court. It was encouraged to change the surname of the Xianbei to that of han. Mix marriage between han and Xianbei was encouraged. In 495 AD, it was decree that Xianbei and other northern languages were not to be spoken in the court, anyone who violate it would not be able to stay in court.. "to eliminate northern language, make Han language official. All above 30 years old are pardoned . For those below 30 years old, anyone who met the officials must speak the han langauge, if violated will be sacked form their position. Xiao Wendi also encouraged the wearing of the han clothing.

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　　在语言、衣冠汉化的同时，孝文帝下诏定姓族，改鲜卑复姓为汉姓。“拓跋”二字，据《魏书·序纪》所载，拓跋氏为黄帝之后裔，而“黄帝以土德王，北俗谓土为托，谓后为跋，故以为氏”。改拓跋氏为元氏，以继华夏正统自居。除帝室元氏及长孙、叔孙、奚氏等宗族诸姓及勋臣八姓（见前）之外，又根据各宗族祖宗的官位，分别列入姓或族，并为汉族豪强定姓族。主要目的是为了区别升降，以门第高低来品举人才，即所谓“班镜九流，清一朝轨”，以免“清浊同流，混齐一等” ③。实际上，就是保证鲜卑贵族的政治地位，逐渐与汉族世家合流，使胡、汉统治者在门阀制度下，进一步消除隔阂，加强联合，并结成姻戚。通过婚姻关系，不仅双方在政治上休戚相关，利害与共，而且使胡、汉在血统上凝为一体，以共同支持北魏的封建政权。

Translation:

Besides the language, Xiao Wendi also ordered the change of Xianbei surname to that of Han. The 'Tuoba" (a Xianbei surname), according to "the book of Wei", was a descendent from the Yellow Emperor. The Tuoba surname was changed to that of Yuan, in order to make their rule and staying in China deemed appropriate. All the aristocracy surnames had to be changed. This is to ensure the Xianbei's political position and the integration with the han family. In addition, mix marriage is encouraged between han and xianbei. With the han's blood being part of them, this would support Northern Wei's regime.

[General_Zhaoyun]

If you're interested in the history tree of the family of Xianbei, and its relation to the Khitan and Mongols, here is a good history tree.

[Yun]

Quote

But after the Xianbei ruled North China during the northern Wei dynasty , they introduced the wooden chair to the chinese and from then on, chinese sits on chair.

Just a clarification: the "barbarian chair" or "barbarian bed" (hu chuang) introduced by the Xianbei during the Age of Fragmentation was not really a wooden chair, but rather a sort of portable folding camp stool - very useful for nomads! The true wooden chair did not emerge in China until the Song dynasty.