[Julius]

Year 1405.

Timur wanted to conquest China.

Timur versus Yongle.

But Timur Lenk died!

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

he would have failed anyway. Anyone that knows the difficulty of crossing the Taklamakan desert and then taking on the countless fortress of China is vitrtually impossible.

[General_Zhaoyun]

If Timur (Tamerlane)'s army fought against the Ming army, who do you think will win?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Its difficult to say, but assuming the commander are of similar quality, the Ming would perhaps prevail in both numbers and a slight edge in quality due to use of firearms along with cavalry.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Do you mean to say Tamerlane's army do not use firearms?

[warlordgeneral]

warhead, on Nov 28 2004, 01:25 PM, said:

he would have failed anyway. Anyone that knows the difficulty of crossing the Taklamakan desert and then taking on the countless fortress of China is vitrtually impossible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure how historically accurate this is and I know you might correct me on some mistakes, but I believe the Ming at its height had possessions as far west as, at most, Hami and Turfan as vassals, while most of the other Tarim Basin city states were not under Ming rule, at least not directly (which was unlike the Han and the Tang when it comes to territorial possessions). Tamerlane was preparing for the invasion from his base at Samarkand, and had Tamerlane won the allegiance of the other city states (his reputation as a fierce conqueror and also their common religion - Muslim), and assuming they would provide a base for his troops to rest as well as food and supplies, I think Tamerlane could invade Ming China.

warhead, on Nov 28 2004, 07:47 PM, said:

Its difficult to say, but assuming the commander are of similar quality, the Ming would perhaps prevail in both numbers and a slight edge in quality due to use of firearms along with cavalry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When it comes to gunpowder weaponry, the Ming may have an advantage in quantity since by this time the Ming had at its disposal at least cannons and late Yuan armies also used firearms while there is some evidence that Tamerlane used gunpowder weaponry in his armies (Clavijo, the Castilian ambassador in Samarkand in 1404, states that Tamerlane made use of gunsmiths from Turkey and employed artillery men in Samarkand that included both engineers and bombardiers), and the Ming may also have a more-rounded army. However, attributing these slight advantages to the Ming's victory I think would be overrating the Ming army a bit because, as you'd mentioned in previous posts that firearms were not decisive weapons for victory until much later. And I also recall that Tamerlane defeated quite a few powerful firearm-infantry based armies of the period, including those of Sultan Bayazit (who was a great commander like Tamerlane) of the Ottoman Turks and those of the Delhi Sultanate in northern India.

[Sephodwyrm]

After fighting against the Oirats and remnants of the Mongol Empire, I think the Ming dynasty is more than capable in handling Tamerlane.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

"I am not sure how historically accurate this is and I know you might correct me on some mistakes, but I believe the Ming at its height had possessions as far west as, at most, Hami and Turfan as vassals, while most of the other Tarim Basin city states were not under Ming rule, at least not directly (which was unlike the Han and the Tang when it comes to territorial possessions). Tamerlane was preparing for the invasion from his base at Samarkand, and had Tamerlane won the allegiance of the other city states (his reputation as a fierce conqueror and also their common religion - Muslim), and assuming they would provide a base for his troops to rest as well as food and supplies, I think Tamerlane could invade Ming China."

That is not how politics work. Unless the states of central asia want to lose their power, they would not allow Timur to just pass without resistance no matter if they are muslim or not. Even if Timur had their support, his back line would still be highly precarious in fear of rebellion both from within his empire and from the states of the Tarim basin.
The Ottoman and Delhi sultanate were magnitudes below the Ming in terms of power. The former only held the area in and around modern Turkey, while the later was already fragmented before Timur sacked its capital. Therefore, you see one decisive battle ending the war in favor of Timur. A large bureaucratic state like Ming could muster hundreds of thousands of soldier even after every defeat the way the Jin was able to do against Genghis. Even Genghis couldn't completely subjugate Jin, whose power only included half of China and they were also in decline. Thats not even taking into account the threat posed by the southern Song.

This post has been edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada: 15 December 2008 - 01:16 AM

[warlordgeneral]

Sephodwyrm, on Dec 5 2004, 09:55 PM, said:

After fighting against the Oirats and remnants of the Mongol Empire, I think the Ming dynasty is more than capable in handling Tamerlane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tamerlane's later successes in siege warfare suggests he probably utilized good infantry (David Nicolle, Age of Tamerlane). And, as I've stated above, he had defeated quite a few powerful firearm-based armies of the period, like those of the Ottoman Empire and the Delhi Sultanate. Furthermore, Tamerlane had destroyed the Jagatai Khanate and considerably weakened the Golden Horde, defeating the Golden Horde khan Toqtamish in a number of battles as well as sacking several cities in Golden Horde territory.

warhead, on Dec 6 2004, 03:12 PM, said:

That would not be how the way politics work, Unless the states of central asia want to lose their power, they would not allow Timur to just pass without resistance nbo matter if they are muslim or not, and even if he had their support, his back line is highly precarious in fear of rebellion both from his empire and the states of Tarim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am just curious. I am wondering how did some of the dynasties before the Northern Song, like the Han and Tang, conquer the Tarim Basin if it was as difficult as you had pointed out. If the Tarim Basin could be conquered by those empires, why couldn't Tamerlane do it? Furthermore, the Tarim Basin wasn't under the control of the Ming, so I don't really see it as part of their defense. Topographically, was the Tarim Basin harder to invade from the West?

warhead, on Dec 6 2004, 03:12 PM, said:

Ottoman and Delhi sultanate is completely different situation in which one decisive battle ended the war, a large bureucratic state like Ming could muster hundreds of thousand after every defeat like Jin was able to do against Genghis. Even Genghis couldn't completely subjugate Jin whose power only included half of China and in decline while a threat by Song always there, it also couldn't muster all its troops against the mongols.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Tamerlane's empire in 1404 was larger than the Mongol empire during Chinggis' time. Tamerlane had territories stretching from Turkey to the borders of Mongolia (as late as the 1390's, Tamerlane's troops were still campaigning against the remaining Jagatai Khans deep in the forests of the Altai Mountains in Mongolia, where his troops amused themselves by carving his name in tree trunks). He could easily muster large forces of Turcomans and Jagatai Turko-Mongols that would comprise of his cavalry, and Tajik peasant levies as well as Iranian armoured infantrymen. I know the Ming was much larger than the Jin Empire since it included southern China as well as Inner Mongolia, but I don't think the outcome of the battles would be decided by mere numbers.

[Sip Pat Ti Nyuk Liung]

Tamerlane's empire was much smaller than that of the Chinggis. His empire was only around the size of Xianbei empire only.

[Zuo Zongtang]

Tamerline was much to brutal of a leader. He slaughtered everyone he met. When he defeated the Muslim commander, he placed him in a cage at the top of his throne room. Other times, he had prisoners dropped onto sharpened wooden stakes. Still other times, he would kill off an entire city and pile their skulls in a giant pyramid.

He was too brutal. I think that even if he did do conquer parts of Ming, the sheer brutality he showed would cause constant rebellion or force Ming troops to fight harder.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Tamerlane's later successes in siege warfare suggests he probably utilized good infantry (David Nicolle, Age of Tamerlane). And, as I've stated above, he had defeated quite a few powerful firearm-based armies of the period, like those of the Ottoman Empire and the Delhi Sultanate."


Its exactly this infantry that would create logistic problems across the taklamakan desert.










"I am just curious. I am wondering how did some of the dynasties before the Northern Song, like the Han and Tang, conquer the Tarim Basin if it was as difficult as you had pointed out. If the Tarim Basin could be conquered by those empires, why couldn't Tamerlane do it? Furthermore, the Tarim Basin wasn't under the control of the Ming, so I don't really see it as part of their defense. Topographically, was the Tarim Basin harder to invade from the West?"

Yes it was, invasion from the west is blocked by high mountain ranges such as the Tien and the Hindu kush, the only easy access was through Kashgar which could easily be defended as Ban Chao did with a small force against tens of thousands of the Kushan army. History has proven this that no empire has ever conquered the tarim basin from the west.









"Well, Tamerlane's empire in 1404 was larger than the Mongol empire during Chinggis' time. "


No it wasn't, Timur's empire at the time was 2,160,000 sq miles, that of the mongols during genghis was 4,860,000sq miles. That of the Ming during the same time was 1,820,000. Which would increase to over 2,200,000 by the time of Yong Le's height



"Tamerlane had territories stretching from Turkey to the borders of Mongolia (as late as the 1390's, Tamerlane's troops were still campaigning against the remaining Jagatai Khans deep in the forests of the Altai Mountains in Mongolia, where his troops amused themselves by carving his name in tree trunks)."

And the Ming at the same time sacked Karakorum, capital of the empire of the great khan, the center of the mongol empire. capturing over half of the royal family.

"He could easily muster large forces of Turcomans and Jagatai Turko-Mongols that would comprise of his cavalry, and Tajik peasant levies as well as Iranian armoured infantrymen."

The invasion force was 200,000, he died on the route.

"I know the Ming was much larger than the Jin Empire since it included southern China as well as Inner Mongolia, but I don't think the outcome of the battles would be decided by mere numbers."

It would be decided by numbers, quality and most important of all strategic position which Timur's army is at a great disadvantage.

[warlordgeneral]

warhead, on Jan 4 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

Its exactly this infantry that would create logistic problems across the taklamakan desert.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

warhead, on Jan 4 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

Yes it was, invasion from the west is blocked by high mountain ranges such as the Tien and the Hindu kush, the only easy access was through Kashgar which could easily be defended as Ban Chao did with a small force against tens of thousands of the Kushan army. History has proven this that no empire has ever conquered the tarim basin from the west.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about the Hepthalites/White Huns who expanded their influence into the Tarim Basin from their base in Transoxiana?

warhead, on Jan 4 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

No it wasn't, Timur's empire at the time was 2,160,000 sq miles, that of the mongols during genghis was 4,860,000sq miles. That of the Ming during the same time was 1,820,000. Which would increase to over 2,200,000 by the time of Yong Le's height.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From what source did you get such exact numbers? Or did you do the calculations on your own? If so, you'll have to justify them.

warhead, on Jan 4 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

And the Ming at the same time sacked Karakorum, capital of the empire of the great khan, the center of the mongol empire. capturing over half of the royal family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My original point was to show the extent of Tamerlane's empire and that a map like online maps like this one can be misleading since it doesn't include all the Timurid territories, like the ones east of Lake Balkhash up to the Altai Mountains.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"What about the Hepthalites/White Huns who expanded their influence into the Tarim Basin from their base in Transoxiana?"

No, its the opposite! The Ephtalites or the Ye li Du, was originally a subject of the Rouran, in sungaria, they expanded WESTWARD sometime in the early 5th century and reached Bactira around 430 a.d. so they did not expand east from Transoxiana but west from Sungaria.



"From what source did you get such exact numbers? Or did you do the calculations on your own? If so, you'll have to justify them."

The U.S. calculation report of the top ten conquerors of history, Timur's empire was given as 2.16 million sq mile, Ming China's isn't hard, just add up the region of China proper today taken from a Chinese geoghraphy book with that of the Ordos and Liaoning as well as half of Qin Hai.


"My original point was to show the extent of Tamerlane's empire and that a map like online maps like this one can be misleading since it doesn't include all the Timurid territories, like the ones east of Lake Balkhash up to the Altai Mountains. "

And it still shouldn't count because the fighting is little more than raids and not permanent conquest or vassalage.

[Sephodwyrm]

Quote

QUOTE(Sephodwyrm @ Dec 5 2004, 09:55 PM)
After fighting against the Oirats and remnants of the Mongol Empire, I think the Ming dynasty is more than capable in handling Tamerlane.

Tamerlane's later successes in siege warfare suggests he probably utilized good infantry (David Nicolle, Age of Tamerlane). And, as I've stated above, he had defeated quite a few powerful firearm-based armies of the period, like those of the Ottoman Empire and the Delhi Sultanate. Furthermore, Tamerlane had destroyed the Jagatai Khanate and considerably weakened the Golden Horde, defeating the Golden Horde khan Toqtamish in a number of battles as well as sacking several cities in Golden Horde territory.

You're not addressing my argument at all. I am saying that the Ming Empire has ousted their Mongol overlords and were successful in engaging in campaigns against the remnants of the Mongol Empire. Tamerlane would just be another invading army with all the ferocity and none of the originality. The Ming of Tamerlane's time is always on the move against a plausible invasion. If you're talking about the Ming in Emperor Ying Zhong's time I would probably say its a hard match, but we're talking about Emperor Cheng Zu in which the Ming garrison forces are at their prime.