[Sephodwyrm]

Despite the traditional submissive character of Chinese ladies, many of them were extremely domineering and held an awesome amount of influence and power. Some of them were also partially responsible for the fall of dynasties, kingdoms and caused great ruin. There were also some who were known for benevolence and helped greatly in the governing of the kingdom.

But I like to start with the naughty girls (I like naughty girls...they're so unpredictable...but right now I'm trying to get close to a Jewish girl whose laughter is like soft purrings). Zhang Li Hua, the favorite concubine of the last emperor of the Chen dynasty in the North-South dynasty period, was a very beautiful and intelligent lady. It was said that her hair dragged two feet on the ground. The emperor would listen to his ministers and do his daily duties with her sitting on his lap, and she would also participate in the discussion. However, the emperor mostly neglect his duties to have drinking orgies with her and his harem.

When the Chen dynasty fell to the Sui invasion, Yang Guang, the second son of Yang Jian (Emperor Wen of Sui) wanted to seize Zhang Li Hua for himself. She, the emperor of Chen and another favorite concubine were found in a well. The empress Shen, however, was unfazed by the invasion and sat calmly in her usual place in the inner palace. The crown prince also did the same. The Sui troops were respectable of this behavior and treated them well. The general He Ruo Xi had Zhang Li Hua executed, though.

[Ghost_of_Han]

I hated Wu Song's brothers wife in the "Outlaws of the Marsh", and I hated Song Jiang's wife too.

[Sephodwyrm]

You mean Pan Jin Lian and Yan Po Xi? Yeah, they're really bad girls. But you can't blame Pan Jin Lian, not really. I feel rather sorry for her, you know. She was forced to marry the shortest and ugliest man in town and the one she had an affair with was the richest and hunkiest guy in town. Yan Po Xi is just nasty, but Song Jiang's neglect of her is also highly responsible.

Some are convinced that Shi Nai An hates women. But with closer inspection, those adulteresses in the Water Margin are not completely at fault. Alright, you may say that Yang Xiong's wife is really a bad one. She had an affair with a monk and maligned her husband's friend for it. Now that's really naughty.

And if you do have a choice, which lady would you marry in the water margin? Just asking, nothing personal. In an era when even the emperor himself frequented prostitues (his fav was Li Shi Shi)...

[Gweilo]

My research indicates that Empress Lu (Liu Bang's wife) became quite the ruthless dowager after Liu Bang's death. Her actions included torture, premeditated murder (of her own children no less), and destabilizing the young dynasty by replacing key administrators with relatives from her own family.

Quite a lady! :P

[Shadowfax]

Wu Ze tian of Tang is smarter, taken over the court and changed the dynasty's name. :D

I heard that beautiful ladies of Tang were all fat because that's what was seemed as beauty at the time.

[Sephodwyrm]

Not really. The Empress dowager Lu never murdered her own son. Rather, she murdered the son of her rival concubine Qi. The motivation behind it was revenge. Poor boy, and poor mother. Here's the story in detail (I am not responsible for misquotes...you're not supposed to take this word for word...research for yourself):

Liu Bang had a favorite concubine Qi who was often with him at the front lines. She had a son Ru Yi who was made the prince of Zhao after Liu Bang became Emperor Gao Zu of Han. However, concubine Qi begged Liu Bang to make her son into the heir (thus replacing Liu Bang's oldest son by the Empress). The Empress was worried and asked Chen Ping, Xiao He and Zhang Liang (or just one of them) on how to help the crown prince in keeping his position. The advisors suggested that the crown prince try to invite the 4 renowned scholars and arrange a meeting between them and the emperor. Thus, the crown prince humbled himself and the 4 scholars agreed to come.

Liu Bang was amazed and shocked when the 4 scholars came to have a chat with him. He said: "Why didn't you guys come earlier when I invited you?"
The 4 scholars replied: "Well, it was because you were insolent. The crown prince is known for his gentle virtues and humbleness. That's why we agreed to come at his bidding." Liu Bang thought for a while, and then chatted to them about matters of state. The 4 scholars said: "The crown prince has committed no mistakes or offences so far, and his virtues are needed for the prosperity for the nation." Thus Liu Bang concluded that the crown prince's support was very great and he could not replace him with his favorite son. He went back and told concubine Qi that he could do nothing about replacing the heir, and that the crown prince has a lot of support from the ministers and learned men. The concubine was much disturbed and disappointed.

So Liu Bang died and his crown prince ascended as Emperor Hui of Han. His mother, the empress dowager Lu, remembering how the concubine Qi tried to undermine her and her son's legitimate position, exacted her revenge. She had the concubine banished to the cold palace and then to forced labor, and then she had her converted into the human pig (Ren Zhi). Her limbs were chopped off, her eyes were gouged out, her tongue cut, her ears burnt with hot irons, her nose slit and she was left to rot in the toilet. The empress was so impressed with her handiwork that she invited her son the emperor to see it. Her son was much disgusted and immediately summoned his younger brother Ru Yi to live with him. The emperor ensured that he ate from the same plate and drank from the same cup as his younger brother and even sleeps in the same bed. And thus, the Dowager Empress Lu could not poison the food or send assasins to kill the son of her arch rival.

One day, the emperor woke up early and found that his younger brother is still sleeping. He thus tip-toed out of the bed to go to the bathroom as he was afraid to wake the boy up. However, when he returned his brother was dead (either strangled or forced to drink poison). He confronted his mother and called her inhuman. He then went to waste his life away on alcohol and women.

Thing is, Ru Yi was not the dowager empress's son.

To continue with the dowager empress's exploits, it was not really bad. The Empress dowager did maintain her cool in some situations. Mo Du Chan Yu wrote a letter asking for her hand in an extremely insulting manner. The dowager empress was infuriated but considering the need for the dynasty to rest, she wrote a letter back that she can't be there because she has strong obligations in China. Thus, a war is prevented, though it was clear that the Xiong Nu still had the upper hand in diplomacy (Han China was still paying the Xiong Nu tribute).

The Empress Dowager did replace key administrators with members of her family. When her son the emperor died, she fell deeply ill soon after and told her family members that they would be finished if she dies, and told them to beware of Zhou Bo and Chen Ping. However, her relatives told her that Zhou Bo and Chen Ping were her most trusted cronies. The Empress Dowager replied that they're much deeper than they appear.

Indeed, after the Empress Dowager died, the Lu clan did try to make some power grabs. Zhou Bo and Chen Ping appeared to comply but secretly plotted to reestablish power to the royal family. They duped the Lu clan to give up their military power to subjugate "rebels" and then asked the soldiers who they support. If they support the Liu, they would bare their left arm. If they support the Lu, they would bear the right arm. All the soldiers bared their left arm. Chen Ping and Zhou Bo thus led the men to annihilate the clan of Lu and put a son of Liu Bang on the throne as Emperor Wen of Han.

[thirdgumi]

Wu Ze Tian was a great woman, not many woman achieved what she had achieved.
The archeological diggings found the tomb of a Shang queen called Fu Hao. She wasn't mensioned in Shi Ji, but Shang inscirpts on tutle shells mensioned her many times. She was one of the queen of the King Wu Ding of Shang, she was at the same time the military commander of Wu Ding's army, led Shang army defeated many Shang rivals. And she was also a high priestess of Shang.

[Sephodwyrm]

There are at least 200 mentionings of Fu Hao from oracle bones and turtle shells. Her campaigns against the Dong Yi were extremely successful and she gave as a present numerous sea turtles (the sign that she reached the Chinese coast in her campaign) to her husband and king: Wu Ding of Shang. She was also the mother of the heir and commanded great respect. When she died, Wu Ding was deeply saddened and prepared a most magnificent grave for her, including 300 slaves to be buried with her. :ph43r:

Do you guys know Zhao Fei Yan? In size and weight she's the opposite of Yang Gui Fei. I think friend thirdgumi can give us some elaboration on this little petite lady.

[thirdgumi]

I wounder why Sima Qian never mensioned Fu Hao in his Shi Ji, after all, she was the greatest woman that China had ever seen up to Sima Qian's time. One thing is interesting was that Fu Hao's grave was never plundered, so that means no one knew the existence of the tomb, or better, people forgot about her so her grave was also forgotten. Also interesting to note that Fu Hao was burried independently from Wu Ding, so that means she had quite a social position, she even had her own lands, she was at the same time a wife, a priestess, a commander and a feudal lord of King Wu Ding. Maybe later confucianist dislike the idea of an independent woman, so they just avoid to mension her. :P
Interesting to note that after Fu Hao's died, King Wu Ding feared that no one would take care of her in spirite world, so he married her to his ancestors, the great kings of Shang. On 3 tutles shells found, there were 3 questions of King Wu Ding asking the same thing: - is Fu Hao married? - And the 3 replies were all "Yes" and married to 3 different kings, including the great Shang Tang (商汤), the 1st king of the Shang, the other one is Zu Yi (祖乙) and I forgot the last one :P Such an "Iron Maiden", I woundered why King Wu Ding thought she needed someone's protection.

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I think friend thirdgumi can give us some elaboration on this little petite lady.

You overrestimate me Sephodwyrm. :P Actually I don't know much about her, except she is quite a beauty and had a syster calle Zhao He De who was also quite a beauty. There was a novel about her. Li Bai from Tang dynasty wrote a poem, comparing Yang Gui Fei to her.

[Yun]

If you can read Chinese, there are lots of stories about empresses and concubines on this website: http://ihome.cuhk.ed...ee/mainpage.htm

Some of the stories aren't up yet though - you can check back from time to time to see which ones have been added.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Great post and topics. I only admire Wu Zetian , who was also a ruthless lady in Tang history, becoming the 1st empress in Chinese history.

How do would judge empress dowager Cixi of Qing dynasty? If not for her, the Wuxu reform might be successful..Can we say that the downfall of Qing dynasty can be accorded to empress dowager Cixi?

[Sephodwyrm]

Some may shift the blame on her. I must say that Cixi, though responsible for the failure to accommodate reforms when China needed it the most, is not TOTALLY responsible. We must keep in mind that there's also a great number of scholars and learned men who also refused to adapt pro-western reforms. The overall xenophobic nature of Chinese society also helped too. But Cixi has to take a lot of responsibility for the fall of China because she is the ruler and she is the one that has to take precedence, the first to adapt reforms, and the first to lead the change. If the leader would not change, how would you expect the people to?

[thirdgumi]

I don't think Cixi was sole responsable for the fall of Qing. I was having class abour Qing dynasty and had contact with many sources, all indicated that Cixi was not only one who was conservative and the reformists were not all saints. Per example, Kang Youwei who wanted to kill Cixi after he received an order from emperor, it was a fake order forged by Kang Youwei himself, the original order of the emperor didn't mensioned anything about killing Cixi. So, after the plot to kill Cixi, that was when Cixi made her move and ended the reform killing the main reformists. And there were many complicated factor which played the downfall of Qing.

[General_Zhaoyun]

thirdgumi, on Jun 29 2004, 01:09 PM, said:

I don't think Cixi was sole responsable for the fall of Qing. I was having class abour Qing dynasty and had contact with many sources, all indicated that Cixi was not only one who was conservative and the reformists were not all saints. Per example, Kang Youwei who wanted to kill Cixi after he received an order from emperor, it was a fake order forged by Kang Youwei himself, the original order of the emperor didn't mensioned anything about killing Cixi. So, after the plot to kill Cixi, that was when Cixi made her move and ended the reform killing the main reformists. And there were many complicated factor which played the downfall of Qing.

It seems that Cixi was behind the failure of the Wuxu reform, wasn't it? I just think that if the Wuxu reform was successful.. China might be strong again.

[thirdgumi]

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It seems that Cixi was behind the failure of the Wuxu reform, wasn't it? I just think that if the Wuxu reform was successful.. China might be strong again.

Yes, Cixi was partly responsable for the failure of the Wuxu reform, but nothing indicated that Wuxu was going well. Many contemporaries cited that emperor Guang Xu wanted to do things which meant for years to accomplish in a matter of mounth. The reformists issued so many new laws at such a high rate that when a new law reach province, another even newer law would come immediatly after, making the administration of the empire, at least a confusion.
One must note that when Shang Yang make his reform in Qin, he didn't rush things. He did the reform withing 2 stages.
The Wuxu reform was poorly designed and organized. Plus the attempt of Kang Youwei to assassinate Cixi, resulted in a counter move of the empress which ultimatly doomed the reform. Had Kang Youwei not forged the emperial order to assassinate Cixi, the Wuxu reform might lasted a bit longer.