[Sephodwyrm]

The Premier (Cheng Xiang, Xiang Guo, Ling Yi) was virtually the second in command of the empire or kingdom. Starting from the Zhou dynasty we had Zhou Gong (Ji Dan) who took care of the daily business of governing to ease his brother Ji Fa's (king Wu of Zhou) burdens. This position is much like the grand vizier of the Osmans and other Middle Eastern Empires, or the Xian Wang of the Chan Yu.

You would also consider people like Guan Yi Wu, Yan Ying, Wei Yang, Wu Qi and Wu Zi Xu as premiers as well. Many of these had powerul personalities and had great influences. Some, despite of their great power, kept a stoic lifestyle and these were much admired for their modesty, humbleness and EQ. A Chinese saying is that a Premier's belly can hold a ship. Which means that their Du Liang (ability to take in criticism) is very great.

Although the position of premier was abolished by Zhu Yuan Zhang to increase his autocratic power, there were also officials in the Ming dynasty that held power similar to that of the premier. The most well known people with such power was Yan Song and Zhang Ju Zheng (who were virtually direct opposites). Yan Song was known for corruption while Zhang Ju Zheng was known as the premier responsible for the reestablishment of Ming power.

So, talk about the good, bad and ugly.

[thirdgumi]

Cheng Xiang or premier and the entire system was first created by Qin shi Huang Di. Cheng Xiang would handle all civil duties, Tai Wei would handle all military duties and Yu Shi Dai Fu would supervise all officers. Those 3 officers would be the most powerful ones under the emperor. Before that, Cheng Xiang and many duties including military and civil ones. During Warring States period, the state of Qin got Left zheng Xiang and Right Cheng Xiang, one handled military duties and one handled civil duties, though I don't remember which one is which.

[Sephodwyrm]

I hope this thread would not be limited to Chen Xiang. This thread is for the discussion of the people who held powers that was similar to that of the Chen Xiang. Thus, you could include Wu Zi Xu and Wu Qi as such people as well.

The most model Chen Xiang would be Zhuge Liang. Even in his time he was proclaimed as the model man. When Zhang Ti, the premier of Wu, was losing the field against the Jin army, his officers (who included some ex-Shu officers) tried to drag him away. Zhang Ti replied: "When I was only a young boy, your premier Zhuge Liang saw that I have some skills and greatly supported me. I constantly worry that I would die a shameful death. Now my chance has come to prove my worth and that I was the indeed the man that Zhuge Liang expected me to be." And thus Zhang Ti fought on and was slain on the battlefield as a honorable soldier (Zi Zhi Tong Jian).

Zhuge Liang, in his tenure as premier and most powerful man in Shu, did not pursue a personal fortune or tried to become rich. He had but one wife and his son and grandson died as patriots for Shu. He was also a legalist and executed laws to the letter. Even those that he had punished were anguished when he heard that he died. Li Yan, the logistics officer he had deposed due to his scheme, lamented that Shu is finished without Zhuge Liang.

[thirdgumi]

Shang Yan was a powerful man under the ruler of Qin state, Qin Xiao Gong, his reforms made Qin powerful. He himself gained fame, fortune and power. Pitty, when Qin Xiao Gong died, Shang Yan was killed by the successor of the Qin ruler.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Li Si was the tutor of Qinshihuang. He eventually became a premier. He was responsible for teaching Qinshihuang about legalism.

[Sephodwyrm]

Li Si was a son of a hemp farmer (Bu Nong) from Shang Cai. He desired to make it really big. He said something about rats in the granary and rats in the toilet. One was well fed and was unafraid of people, and they ate the best grains. The other rat ate from refuse, filth, maggots and scurried away when people saw them. Li Si thus concluded that the environment and opportunity determines everything.

Li Si was also jealuos of Han Fei (who was his classmate with Xun Qing, aka Xun Tzu) and had him murdered. But he also adopted the ideas of Han Fei (Bu Yong Qi Ren, Que Yong Qi Dao) and Ying Zheng finds Han Fei's teachings and ideas extremely useful. Li Si also drafted the Fan Zhu Ke Ling (the petition that urges Ying Zheng to think twice before forcing all foreign scholars out of Qin). The reason behind the legislation of Ying Zheng to chase away all foreigners was because of Zheng Guo, the genius engineer that was sent by the state of Han to disrupt Qin power by luring it to embark on a water canal project so large that her power is drained. The ploy was found out and Ying Zheng was much angered.

But Li Si argued:
1. Ever since the reign of Duke Mu of Qin, the Qin has always been reliant on foreign talent. The famous advisor Bai Li Xi was a native of Yu but he was made the chief minister and made Qin power great.
2. And then Duke Xiao of Qin made use of Shang Yang, a native of Wei, and made her armies invincible and confirmed the power of the ruler and made the people obey the laws to become a strong state.
3. King Hui of Qin made use of Zhang Yi, native of Wei, and destroyed the coalition formed by the 6 states against Qin
4. King Zhao of Qin made use of Fan Sui, another native of Wei, and adopted the doctrine of allying with those far from you and conquering those next to you.
5. Our king now wishes to make do without foreign talents so that they would serve the other states and make them powerful. Yet the very reason Qin is powerful is because of these foreign talents.
6. Our king cares for his foreign jewels, horses, treasures and women, and yet they do little to make our state powerful. Why must the king chase away foreign talents to make other states powerful and yet care so much about useless artifacts of foreign nature?
(main crux of Li Si's argument)

Ying Zheng was very much impressed and immediately took back the legislation. The foreign talents stayed in Qin and helped the state to unify China as well. Zheng Guo was released from his cell and allowed to work on his project, which he worked earnestly and created the Zheng Guo canal, one that would ensure the Qin armies would be well fed and the people of Qin need not be overly strained providing for their armies due to the vast arable land made available by this project.

But of course, Li Si became immensely rich. It did come upon his mind in his memories that his teacher once told him: "When you're at the zenith, you have no where to go but down." He thought about retreating from politics, but the lure of it still proved to great. In the end, he was involved in the Sha Qiu incident where he collaborated with Zhao Gao and Hu Hai to forge Ying Zheng's will in passing the throne to his oldest son Fu Su, but instead Fu Su was granted death and Hu Hai became the next emperor. Zhao Gao then isolated Li Si politically and using a ploy, had him executed, with his clan to the 3rd degree. Li Si would be halved at the waist. Before his execution, he wept to his son that he would have wished to take him again to hunt rabbits with dogs.

[Sephodwyrm]

In some cases the grand general (Da Jiang Jun) has the duties of the premier as well. Huo Guang was one of the most powerful (perhaps the most powerful) Jiang Jun in Chinese history. He had the power to depose an emperor, but unfortunately, his wife screwed things up pretty big...the Huo clan was exterminated under the reign of Emperor Xuan of Han. One of the reasons being that his empress was poisoned by the Huo...that empress whom he loved before he became emperor and was just a simple commoner...(what a sad story, really...).

[General_Zhaoyun]

The famous story of "Huo Guang's assistance" (霍光辅政) during western han dynasty was to set forth the resurgence of Han glory (昭宣中兴)

[Sawa]

How about Wei Jeng during Tang, would he be considered a Premier? His first encounter with Tang Taizong was pretty cool. If I remembered correctly he served with Li Shimin's brother Li Jian chen, ploted to kill Shimin several time, and when brought face to face with Li Shimin as Tang Taizong still talk straight, cursing his luck instead of showing any love of life..

[General_Zhaoyun]

Sawa, on Sep 20 2005, 01:39 AM, said:

How about Wei Jeng during Tang, would he be considered a Premier? His first encounter with Tang Taizong was pretty cool. If I remembered correctly he served with Li Shimin's brother Li Jian chen, ploted to kill Shimin several time, and when brought face to face with Li Shimin as Tang Taizong still talk straight, cursing his luck instead of showing any love of life..

Yes, Wei Zheng 魏征 was one of the most famous premier during Tang dynasty. He was a favourite minister of Tang Taizong. Before Li Shimin (Tang Taizong) became emperor, Wei Zheng used to serve Li Jianchen, brother of Li Shimin, and plotted to kill Shimin. After Li Jianchen was killed at the Palace coup of Xuanwu, Tang Taizong summoned Wei Zheng, and he told Li Shimin that if Li Jianchen had followed his advice, it would be Li Shimin who would be killed instead. At first, Li Shimin wanted to kill Wei Zheng, but on later account, decided to use Wei Zheng as a premier.

Wei Zheng gave many sound advice to Li Shimin, many of which were accepted by Li Shimin. He was also very daring in 'humiliating' Li Shimin, giving him much criticisim. In many occasion, Li Shimin almost feel like killing him.

After Wei Zheng died, Li Shimin was very sad. He commented the following:

以铜为镜,正衣冠
以古为镜,知兴替
以人为镜,明得失
魏征没,朕失一镜

Translation:


Using the bronze as mirror can shape one's dressing
Using the past as mirror can let one know rise and fall
Using the people as mirror can let one understand win and loss
Without Wei Zheng, I (the emperor) lose a mirror

[Sawa]

General_Zhaoyun, on Sep 20 2005, 08:28 PM, said:

After Wei Zheng died, Li Shimin was very sad. He commented the following:

以铜为镜,正衣冠
以古为镜,知兴替
以人为镜,明得失
魏征没,朕失一镜

Translation:


Using the bronze as mirror can shape one's dressing
Using the past as mirror can let one know rise and fall
Using the people as mirror can let one understand win and loss
Without Wei Zheng, I (the emperor) lose a mirror

CHF should have that poem from the begining..

I also read that Li Shimin was also afraid of Wei Zheng, one time killing his favorite bird by hiding it in his robe for fear that Wei Zheng might see him playing. Maybe the only incident of its kind in history.

[Alexander39]

Threads like this, is very usefull not least becourse for the novices it teach a lot about the powers behind the thrones, all to often it is only the emperors we hear about.
But besides the premiers theres is also the women, teachers, philosophers, advisors whitout official status, such as childhood friends, and so on.

[Sawa]

Alexander39, on Sep 21 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

Threads like this, is very usefull not least becourse for the novices it teach a lot about the powers behind the thrones, all to often it is only the emperors we hear about.
But besides the premiers theres is also the women, teachers, philosophers, advisors whitout official status, such as childhood friends, and so on.

Yea we need more of them, and not on the last page of a forum.

Wei Zheng's ten advice to Li Shimin, given when Wei Zheng was sick, and Li Shimin a little too full of himself:

1. When you have great desires, contain your self.
2. When you wish to build grand palaces, know the balance.
3. When in high places, one need to be ever more humble.
4. When full of tributes, one must be simple.
5. When powerfull, respect and enforce the law.
6. When full of happiness, beware of sadness.
7. When one does not wish to be blind, seek honest and direct consel.
8. When one hates the corrupts officials, one must first examine one's self.
9. When rewarding a subject, make sure it is not too much.
10. When punishing a subject, make sure it is not done through anger.

Well, that's what I read..

hmm, maybe we need more notorious Premiers on this thread?