20 replies to this topic

[JiG]

Here is a very interesting description of medieval Tibetan life and manners from the records of the Tang Dynasty of China, most probably written before 640 AD:

* The country has a very cold climate, oats, barley, wheat and buckwheat grow there, there are yaks, excellent horses and dogs, sheep, and pigs.
* The capital is known as Lhasa, where there are city-walls and houses with flat roofs.
* The king and his nobles live in felt tents which are joined together as one large one.
* They sleep in unclean places and never wash or comb their hair.
* For the most part people lead a pastoral life with their flocks and herds without fixed habitation.
* They dress in felt and leather.
* They like to paint themselves with red ochre(an earthy mineral oxide, a face paint).
* The women plait(braid) their hair.
* They worship the heavens and believe in sorcerers and soothsayers.
* They do not know the seasons, and their year begins when the barley is ripe.
* Their games are chess and dice, for music they have conch-shells(spiral shell horn) and drums.
* They have no writing for official purposes, and they fix arrangements by means of knotted cords and notched tally-sticks.
* They make [water] vessels by bending round a piece of wood and fitting in a leather bottom, or they make basins of felt.
* They drink beer in their cupped hands.
* There are hundreds of thousands of men ready to bear arms, and in order to levy troops they use a golden arrow(as a symbol of authority).
* In order to give warning of enemy attacks they use fire and smoke signal.
* There is a watch-post every hundred li(a Chinese unit of distance, equivalent to about half a kilometer or one third of a mile).
* Their armor and helmets are excellent. When they put them on their whole body is covered, with holes just for the eyes.
* Their bow and their sword never leave them.
* They prize physical strength and despise old age.
* A mother salutes her son, and a son has precedence over his father. When they go out and in, it is always the young men who go first and the older men afterwards.
* Military discipline is strict. In battle it is not until the troops in front have been completely wiped out that the troops behind come up into line.
* They prize death in battle and hate to end their lives by sickness.
* Those families of whom several generations have died in battle are considered of highest rank.
* But when someone is defeated in battle or runs away, they fix a fox-tail to his head to show that is cowardly like the fox. A great crowd will assemble and he is certain to be put to death.
* According to their custom they feel great shame in this matter, and they consider that it is far better to be dead.
* As punishment, even for a small fault, they take out the eyes, or cut off the feet or the nose.
* They give floggings with leather whips just as they see fit and without and regulated number of lashes. For prisoners they dig down in the earth several dozens of feet, and they keep their prisoners there for two or three year.
* The kings and five or six of his followers are bound in friendship and they are called 'living in common'. When the king dies, they are all killed sacrificially. His garments, his treasure, the horses he has ridden, are interred, and a large chamber is made which is covered with a mound. Trees are planted there, and it is in this place that the ancestral sacrifices are performed.

Its interesting to see the differences and similarities of Tibetans from this time period from the Tibetans of later periods, after Buddhism, or even presently. I found the custom of the son having precedence over the father very interesting since I've never heard of this custom before and also because it something you never hear about in East Asian customs since elders are supposed to be revered and even worshiped.

Sources: Smellgrove, David & Hugh Richardson. A Cultural History of Tibet. Boulder, Colorado: Prajna Press, 1980.

[MING-LOYALIST]

If you read more history you will see that the Xiongnu, xianbei, khitan and whole bunch of others favoured the young and despised the old. they all cared for their sons alot but did not even cry when their parents died, the khitan just put the corpse on a tree and left it there for few years and then cremated it.

The description of medieval tibet has great similarities with xiongnu, xianbei and many other peoples of mongolia and manchuria in ancient times.

[Mei Houwang]

Perhaps cultural attitudes towards old age is in par with wether these cultures were nomadic or sedentary?

[JiG]

True, very good point. Makes sense since in nomadic societies if your old you won't be as capable to work and sustain yourself as you would in sedentary societies. Thus old people may have been seen in that way because they may have been burdens to nomadic society once they declined physically. But then again there were native societies who are nomadic or semi-nomadic who revered elders.

[neil]

If you read more history you will see that the Xiongnu, xianbei, khitan and whole bunch of others favoured the young and despised the old. they all cared for their sons alot but did not even cry when their parents died, the khitan just put the corpse on a tree and left it there for few years and then cremated it.

The description of medieval tibet has great similarities with xiongnu, xianbei and many other peoples of mongolia and manchuria in ancient times.

Are you sure that ESO would not go after you for the M1 photo?

[Monkey-King]

Here is a very interesting description of medieval Tibetan life and manners from the records of the Tang Dynasty of China, most probably written before 640 AD:

* They have no writing for official purposes, and they fix arrangements by means of knotted cords and notched tally-sticks.

I'm curious about this particular point in regards to the Tibetan language. It's my understanding that the Tibetans had written script from the 7th century. The Tibetan King Songtsen Gampo requested that one of his ministers - Thon-mi Sambhota - devise a script for official use. The script is derived from the northern Gupta alphabet of India, which it seems is a descendant of a Semitic script.

Does the book/author give an indication of what sort of person from the Tang Dynasty wrote the descriptions? Were they traders? Diplomats? Court officials?

I'd also be curious of the Tang dynasty travelers make any mention of the particular dialect of Tibetan spoken. There are many different dialects spoken in Tibetan. It'd be interesting to see if they were able to distinguish the difference in dialect.

Edited by Monkey-King, 22 July 2007 - 01:47 AM.

[JiG]

I'm curious about this particular point in regards to the Tibetan language. It's my understanding that the Tibetans had written script from the 7th century. The Tibetan King Songtsen Gampo requested that one of his ministers - Thon-mi Sambhota - devise a script for official use. The script is derived from the northern Gupta alphabet of India, which it seems is a descendant of a Semitic script.

Does the book/author give an indication of what sort of person from the Tang Dynasty wrote the descriptions? Were they traders? Diplomats? Court officials?

I'd also be curious of the Tang dynasty travelers make any mention of the particular dialect of Tibetan spoken. There are many different dialects spoken in Tibetan. It'd be interesting to see if they were able to distinguish the difference in dialect.

It says its a "general Chinese view of 'barbarians', and indeed almost exactly similar terms are used of some of the neighboring nomadic peoples. It is also rather a composite picture."

Also about your Tibetan written script question: "The statement that the Tibetans had no writing, for example, can relate only to a time before about 640 AD, whereas the information about Tibetan crafts and military prowess would have been acquired later. Nevertheless much of it can be confirmed from other sources. Some families preserve ancient plates made of leather of just the kind described..."

[Monkey-King]

It says its a "general Chinese view of 'barbarians', and indeed almost exactly similar terms are used of some of the neighboring nomadic peoples. It is also rather a composite picture."

If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying this Chinese description is a rather 'generic' barbarian description? Meaning it's a summary description of nomadic peoples of the region and not in any way an exhaustive look at the Tibetans. I guess that the original phrase: 'general Chinese view of 'barbarians' would tend to support that.

Also about your Tibetan written script question: "The statement that the Tibetans had no writing, for example, can relate only to a time before about 640 AD, whereas the information about Tibetan crafts and military prowess would have been acquired later.

Nevertheless much of it can be confirmed from other sources. Some families preserve ancient plates made of leather of just the kind described..."

Again I wanted to make sure I was understanding you correctly... when you say 'nevertheless much of it can be confirmed from other soureces' you mean that there are other sources that show that the Tibetans did indeed have writing prior to the date mentioned in Chinese exploration of the region and people?
The leather plates (books) that you mention are an example of that?

I'd be curious to see if any of the earliest Tibetan script on these leather plates has survived to this day?

[JiG]

If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying this Chinese description is a rather 'generic' barbarian description? Meaning it's a summary description of nomadic peoples of the region and not in any way an exhaustive look at the Tibetans. I guess that the original phrase: 'general Chinese view of 'barbarians' would tend to support that.

Yes. Like it says "almost exactly similar terms are used of some of the neighboring nomadic peoples".

Again I wanted to make sure I was understanding you correctly... when you say 'nevertheless much of it can be confirmed from other soureces' you mean that there are other sources that show that the Tibetans did indeed have writing prior to the date mentioned in Chinese exploration of the region and people?
The leather plates (books) that you mention are an example of that?

I'd be curious to see if any of the earliest Tibetan script on these leather plates has survived to this day?

No, much of the information described by the Tang explorer description can be confirmed by other sources. Meaning more than one source describe the same things within Tibetan society of this time period.

I don't believe the leather plates the book refers to are books. I think it is either plates as in armor plates or plates which you eat off of? It says it is described earlier in the book but I see no mention of a leather plate.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

I wonder if there are any surviving pieces of art displaying how the Tibetans would have painted their faces during the era concurrent with the Tang. That part sounded interesting, although the whole list is fascinating, since the only facets of early Tibetan culture and society that I have observed so far is the Chinese records of their military campaigns during the Tang and some of the architecture they left behind. Incidentally, the Puning Temple of Chengde is modeled after an old Tibetan temple built during China's Tang Dynasty (I forget which century all of the sudden, I think it was the Samyan Monastery?)

Eric

[JiG]

I wonder if there are any surviving pieces of art displaying how the Tibetans would have painted their faces during the era concurrent with the Tang. That part sounded interesting, although the whole list is fascinating, since the only facets of early Tibetan culture and society that I have observed so far is the Chinese records of their military campaigns during the Tang and some of the architecture they left behind. Incidentally, the Puning Temple of Chengde is modeled after an old Tibetan temple built during China's Tang Dynasty (I forget which century all of the sudden, I think it was the Samyan Monastery?)

Eric

Very interesting, i did not know there were Chinese temples modeled after Tibetan ones. About the face painting, in fact I read that there was at least in one case where an early chinese explorer had though tibetans were rock people when he encountered some tibetans who had painted their face dark to stop the glare from the snow.

[JiG]

I wonder if there are any surviving pieces of art displaying how the Tibetans would have painted their faces during the era concurrent with the Tang. That part sounded interesting, although the whole list is fascinating, since the only facets of early Tibetan culture and society that I have observed so far is the Chinese records of their military campaigns during the Tang and some of the architecture they left behind. Incidentally, the Puning Temple of Chengde is modeled after an old Tibetan temple built during China's Tang Dynasty (I forget which century all of the sudden, I think it was the Samyan Monastery?)

Eric

Very interesting, i did not know there were Chinese temples modeled after Tibetan ones. About the face painting, I read that there was an early Chinese explorer who had thought Tibetans to be rock people when he first encountered some who had painted their face dark to stop the glare from the snow.

Edited by JiG, 29 July 2007 - 09:44 PM.

[Yangtze7]

I wonder if there are any surviving pieces of art displaying how the Tibetans would have painted their faces during the era concurrent with the Tang. That part sounded interesting, although the whole list is fascinating, since the only facets of early Tibetan culture and society that I have observed so far is the Chinese records of their military campaigns during the Tang and some of the architecture they left behind. Incidentally, the Puning Temple of Chengde is modeled after an old Tibetan temple built during China's Tang Dynasty (I forget which century all of the sudden, I think it was the Samyan Monastery?)

Eric

I'd imagine Tibetans of the Tang era painted their faces the same way Tibetan nomads of today paint their faces, which is around the cheeks. Afterall nomads pretty much live the same lifestyle as 1500 years ago.

[Monkey-King]

I'd imagine Tibetans of the Tang era painted their faces the same way Tibetan nomads of today paint their faces, which is around the cheeks. Afterall nomads pretty much live the same lifestyle as 1500 years ago.

Are you referring to the traditional sunblock? Similar to the thanaka that Burmese and Thai's use?

More likely it'd have been some smoke/charcoal black used on the cheeks to stop glare from the sun... much the same like football players use under their eyes in NFL.

Edited by Monkey-King, 07 August 2007 - 10:35 PM.