[Kenneth]

I have read some of Thomas Chens posts on the sword forum, and come accross his sword sites dealing with Bi-metallic bronze swords, and swords of Qin etc.

I came about this site by word searches on the internet which I do frequently with keywords to do with early dynasties and such. I read through quite a few posts here in earlier weeks, so its good to have some discussion with people who would have read stories from these time periods even while growing up as kids! I have to start from the beginning really as I only began reading avidly on Chinese history after being amazed to see what was for sale at the Taipei jade markets (taking most dealers at face value I didn't realise most of what they sell is fake)......my wife is Taiwanese by the way, parents from Fuijian, so I read the discussions on that theme with some interest but was a bit intimidated to say anything! I have probably a third perspective on Taiwan even though my wifes family basically come from KMT background, whereas I read about Mao and Chiang from a pure historical interest so can see good and bad in their characters and actions, and claims of Chinese ownership to Taiwan and such. A sticky topic, even to discuss with my wife!. heheh

here are links to pictures I have posted so far,
this Bronze Age site has a number
http://s8.invisionfr...enter/index.php

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...hp?showtopic=16
mineralisation

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...hp?showtopic=22
fibre & wood

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Cent...hp?showtopic=23
fibre on belthooks


and on the sword forum international I show more of the items themselves

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.ph...&threadid=44472
chinese hilts

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.ph...&threadid=44476
crossbow

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.ph...&threadid=44473
dagger-axe (this I already posted above)

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.ph...&threadid=44474
chinese spear

[Kenneth]

...to get back to the original topic (how a Ge looked) here are some links to images of different types. MY own ge are quite typical examples but more artistic ones exist.


this website has a picture of Qin ge with a spear above, under 'bronze halberd'

http://www.bmy.com.c.../dxbq/L112p.htm

The variety of dagger axes are immense, as they were used for a very long time. Shang blades are quite different, and look like the bronze halbered used around the same time, rather than a hook.
this site has the double headed ge I mentioned (and other bronze weapons), I have seen others too as they are identified by the missing 'axe' at the rear.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/gi/dynami...ite=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fycgf%2Fmuseum.htm

this collection (below) has the most fearsome dagger axe I have yet seen, Richard Nable has some really beautiful pieces.
Have a look at the black jagged edged dagger axe pictured second after the iron longsword (shaped like a bat wing). It would be truly terrifying if a person had that point dragged out off them, or it hooked a limb while striking!

http://www.youngmuse..._collection.htm

[Kenneth]

the second post for weapons including the double mounted ge doesn't work,

try
http://militaryhisto...ancientchinese/

and then click on the link for chinese bronze weapons and it will redirect to the site.

I also meant to say above that the early Shang bronze ge resembled the European bronze halberd, which was a triangular point mounted at 90' to the pole.

[Yang Zongbao]

Thank you, Yun. Your post has enlightened me.

Was the character for "Ji" the same as of the Fangtian Ji?

Kenneth, if you are who I think you are, then you're certainly a welcome sight for me. It's Thomas Yuan of SF, good to see you here!

On a side note, Thomas Chen is a wonderful guy...he knows his stuff.

[Kenneth]

Hi,
the Chinese swords/swordmanship forum seems more martial art and later dynasty orientated.....so not so much my area.
I have been learning Wushu from a mainland Chinese girl and she is bringing back one of those fun bending style Wushu form blades, so I might start learning a little of that. I love the Wushu form but am in agreement as said on this forum and on the SFI site that it is a display 'art' and has little bearing in training to fight with fist or weapon (a post-cultural revolution development).......still if she can teach me some of those amazing graceful movements I still love them more than any other style I have seen ot trained at. I just find my body doesnt want to cooperate with some stances, and I am to old now to ever leap and land in full splits or aerial cartwell holding a sword! Cripes. 100% for physical disipline and acrobatic skill & beauty etc. but almost nil for developing combat reflexes or technique.
....actually better authentic schools might exist in Hong Kong or Taiwan, but I am there so briefly each year that I would only gain an impression of the training at best.

Just to keep on track, here's some pics of dagger-axe in use on an ancient bronze Hu design...the full design shows many activity on levels above and below, hunting, mulberry leaf picking, music and war. It is shown in quite a few history texts on the Zhou period if people want to locate the full design.
These dagger axes seem quite long, and there are points above the hook in some instances.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Yang Zongbao, on Dec 30 2004, 09:30 AM, said:

Was the character for "Ji" the same as of the Fangtian Ji?

"Ji" in chinese is 戟

[thirdgumi]

Quote

In the Qin buried army there are Ge with seperate spear points above

That was a Ji. A Ji is a Ge plus a spearhead, whether the Ge and the speahead are forged together or not is not relevant.

What a Ge or a Ji can do is to hook, a charioteer could hook down a fellow charioteer, a horseman could hook down a fellow horseman. There was a painting from Han dynasty portraing horsemen doing the hooking on other horsemen with Ji. Also, the Ge or Ji served as harbalds, when a chariot or a horseman is passing through a target, he just swing the Ge on his side to cut the target. The ge was a very old weapon, it supposedly evolved from axes of neolithic times. There was a archeological finding, a stone axe from neolithic times much simillar to later Ge, very narrow and pointy.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Actually the chinese 'ge' is more appropriate translated as halberd instead of polearm.

[Yun]

A pole-arm is a generic term for any weapon that has a long shaft and a blade or point or hammer at the end. A halberd is a specific type of European pole-arm that has an axe at the end of the shaft (it's also known as a pole-axe). Since the Chinese ge and ji do not have an axe blade (but the Chinese Dafu, 'Great Axe', has), the translation as halberd has always been problematic. 'Dagger-axe' is more accurate, but sounds less familiar. 'Bill' has also been used by Needham, but just sounds silly.

[Kenneth]

I generally describe them as halberd to Europeans I show them too....just to help them visualise it.
It isn't exactly a halberd, but the ones I have seen with spear points mounted above are essentially that....as they can spear as well and slash.
When I first saw a dagger-axe and had it offered to me I didnt know what it was and thought it didnt look like a weapon. I then came back from overseas looked in a few texts (this was when I started studying Chinese history....not too long ago!).
I saw the dagger-axe many times after that. AHA! I said and called the dealer and asked him to post it out to me along with a few other items.
I think Billhook is kind of OK to describe a hooking function, but still it's only a European trying to find an example. It isn't nessecarily a hook though.
My triangular pointed one I hafted and it was obviously to be used to puncture as a 2 handed tomahawk the Maori used here in the 19th century. Actually felt quite effective.
My larger dagger-axe could be used to hook and cut, and those inturned ones I posted on the sword forum would surely hook very well. (re-check my post there as I posted several new dagger-axe images this week).
Richard Nables serrated hook example is certainly effective like a bill hook and notice the extra bits he doesn't even know exactly how they fit!
Obviously it filled a variaty of functions and strikes, single or double mounted, as a true halberd with a spear above (I wish I could post the pics here of the 2 piece bronze weapon, but my limit is still 4.09 kb. Check out the link to Qin I provided for an image.)
On the sword forum they have a bronze age European weapon they call a 'halberd' which is essentially more like a dagger-axe than a medieval form. They even comment on the rounded points, like many Chinese ones have, as a more robust blade form that prevents the point snapping.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.ph...&threadid=33504

[RollingWave]

Quote

Thank you, Yun. Your post has enlightened me.

Was the character for "Ji" the same as of the Fangtian Ji?

Kenneth, if you are who I think you are, then you're certainly a welcome sight for me. It's Thomas Yuan of SF, good to see you here!

On a side note, Thomas Chen is a wonderful guy...he knows his stuff

it is the same word, but Fangtian Hua Ji was probably developed in northern Song or maybe a bit earlier. this was probably why Lu Bu was mistakenly protrait as using the Fang Tian Hua Ji in the Romance of the 3 kingdom, as story tellers began to become big during northern Song, they read from historical text that he used "Ji" and they assume it was the same "Ji" they saw in those days.

kenneth: chinese swords used in martial arts and in real battle was different, real combat swords used during the Han was a lot more akin to Roman gladius than modern day longswords. while the heaviler longer Daos were used extensively too by calvary or in other situations (such as night attack or big mess fights.) this was obviously due to the different considerations, facing multiple armored oppent in tight fight obviously require different attribute than fighting a single unarmored fast moving oppenet in the open .

Although i only have a passing knowledge of chinese Wu Shu, at least most people knowledgable in this area tells me that the different forms that often seem like a dance do indeed carry real combat stuff (for example, Taichi's move acturally is how to punch with great power in very small wind up motion or unbalance an oppenent close up but in super slow motion), however acturally using it require experience and good teacher who acturally knows the real appliance, the more dance like form appears as a easier way for beginers to know all the basic movements. but the later real appliance become much more different. However in maindland china it seems more of the various arts are left only with the dance like form for beginer. or at least the true masters are only willing to share the secerts to a selected few

[Kenneth]

Quote

kenneth: chinese swords used in martial arts and in real battle was different, real combat swords used during the Han was a lot more akin to Roman gladius than modern day longswords

Your telling me!
heheh I just recieved a lot of flak for saying such things! yet I know it's true.

As for Wushu, Hell yes. It is martial ART. I have done combatative stlyes before previously and have only taken up Wushu in the last 2 years, I just love the form but have NO illusions it is for combat. I will be learning sword from soon, but I had to do menial excercises for months before even learning basic fist forms.
My previous Karate instructor lived in taiwan for years (and married a taiwanese) teaches WingChun which is a MARTIAL art with partner work and real application. I looked into it but it was so different to the long fist style that I had to be honest I would have to unlearn all the muscular memory on how to strike basic so despite my high regard for it I learn Wushu which is elegant yet only for show ....I missed the partner work and drills and application so occasionally pop in on my old club, or I train with a Gym instructor friend of mine who doesnt hold back in trying to knock me unconscious. (the B******).
As for Wushu I think the authorities and the cultural revolution have a lot to answer for and only sanction these diluted non-combative stlyes for the population. To learn the good stuff would involve relocating to Taiwan or Hong Kong perhaps, or finding a traditional instructor in the West that hasn't been 'westernised'.
Although I think modernising stlyes is an advancement for martial arts I still prefer to learn the old stlyes if possible as handed down, flaws or not. Probably my interest in history explains my soft spot for such traditions.

[thirdgumi]

Quote

As for Wushu I think the authorities and the cultural revolution have a lot to answer for and only sanction these diluted non-combative stlyes for the population.

Actually, the "dilution" (in a matter of speaking) of martial arts already took place during Ming dynasty. General Qi Ji Guang wrote in his book about how showy was the martial arts in Ming army.

[Wujiang]

thirdgumi, on Feb 24 2005, 10:08 PM, said:

Actually, the "dilution" (in a matter of speaking) of martial arts already took place during Ming dynasty. General Qi Ji Guang wrote in his book about how showy was the martial arts in Ming army.

The ming dynasty saw an unpresedented level of martial arts developement among the civilians. Hundreds of styles sprang up because of a change in the paradigm of thinking. So much so that a number of civilians actually beat the military instructors. Hence they were hired to train the army. The problem is the fact that civilian martial arts is intrinsically different from military martial arts which requires the shortest methods of ending a fight with the most lethal techniques possible. Civilian arts on the other hand were bounded by social rules and the law so they evolved in a very different environment. No less effective but certainly less adapted to battlefield situation.

It may be unintentional, but I would guess that these civilian instructors brought these less lethal techniques into the military. Because civilian arts takes much more time to train to a point where you can acutally use it, alot of techniques which are trained for long-term developement becomes mistaken for short-term useage. Hence, rendering the individual soldiers less effective in hand to hand.

[TMPikachu]

if that's true, then why would military instructors lose to civilians?