[snowybeagle]

Unlike the other major dynasties of China, more of the pioneering generals of the Tang dynasties were rather well known. They did not suffer ignominous endings of some of the pioneering generals of the Han and Ming dynasties where the insecure founding emperor removed them for potential threats. The Song dynasty favoured civilian officers over military officers.

Who would you consider as the best pioneering general of the Tang dynasty?

Let's rate them from 0-100 in terms of
( a ) as a warrior or combatant
( b ) as a commander, a leader of soldiers
( c ) as a tactician
( d ) as a strategist

01. Li ShiMin (李世民), who became the second emperor.

02. Li Jing (李靖), later conferred as Duke of Wei (卫国公).

03. WeiCi JingDe (尉迟敬德), aka WeiCi Gong (尉迟恭). Personally rescued Li ShiMin and an important participant in the coup of Xuan Wu Gate (玄武门). Conferred as Duke of E (鄂国公).

04. Qin ShuBao (秦叔宝), aka Qin Qiong 秦琼. Conferred as Duke of Yi (翼国公), and posthumously as Duke of Hu (胡国公)

05. Cheng YaoJin (程咬金), aka Cheng ZhiJie (程知节), okay this guy was a bit of a joke in the folklore, but he was a good warrior. Conferred as Duke of Lu (卢国公). Had a black mark in his record for executing POWs.

06. Xue RenGui (薛仁贵), aka Xue Li (薛礼). He only joined the military after the Li ShiMin became emperor and invaded Korea, but was instrumental in pacifying the ethnic minorities.

07. Li YuanBa (李元霸), third son of Li Yuan (李渊) the founding emperor of Tang. Died young. Was supposed to be a tough warrior.

08. Luo Yi (罗艺). Originally a general of Sui dynasty, staged his own revolt when Sui fell and occupied Bei Ping (北平). He was courted by various factions but chose to side with the Tang faction. He served the Crown Prince Li JianCheng (李建成). Staged a revolt when his patron was ousted by Li ShiMin and got killed instead.

09. Cai Shao (柴绍). Son-in-law of Li Yuan, fought under Li ShiMin. Conferred as Duke of Huo (霍国公).

10. Xu MaoGong (徐茂公), aka Xu ShiJi (徐世绩) and Li ShiJi (李世绩) or Li Ji (李绩). Conferred as Duke of Ying (英国公).

11. Su DingFang (苏定方). He served under Dou JianDe (窦建德) and Liu Hei Ta (刘黑闼), rivals to Tang before reunification. He retired after his masters were defeated, and brought out of retirement when Li ShiMin ascended as emperor. Conferred as Duke of Xing (邢国公).

Sorry if I missed out some others. My personal knowledge is rather limited.

My choice would be between Li ShiMin and Li Jing, tough choice.

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 23 December 2004 - 11:36 PM

[General_Zhaoyun]

I'm a fan of Xue Rengui..who became the governor of Korea

[Sip Pat Ti Nyuk Liung]

I will choose Li-Shimin, Li-Jing and Su-Dingfang in terms of leadership, tactics and strategies.

Xue-Rengui as great warrior, his leadership and tactics.

Li-Yuanba, Qin-Shubao, Yuchi-Jingde and Cheng-Yaojing as great warriors and leadership ability.

Xu-Maogong for tactics and strategies.

But my favourite is still Xue-Rengui.

[Yun]

Quote

WeiCi JingDe (尉迟敬德), aka WeiCi Gong (尉迟恭). Personally rescued Li ShiMin and an important participant in the coup of Xuan Wu Gate (玄武门). Conferred as Duke of E (鄂国公).

His surname is Xianbei, and should be pronounced as Yuchi. It was 'sinified' to Wei (the usual pronunciation of the first character) under the Northern Wei, but the Yuchi form was revived under the Sui and Tang. Yuchi Jingde was the most prominent Xianbei general of the early Tang army. It's interesting that Qin Qiong and Yuchi Jingde, a Han and a Xianbei, are the most popular 'door gods' in China - images of them are pasted on doors to ward off evil spirits.

After translating the biography of Su Dingfang, he's become my personal favourite - a general of tactical brilliance, martial skill and exemplary character, humane to defeated enemies and upright in dealing with his superiors and colleagues.

[Merchant]

Don't forget Hou2 Jun1ji1.
He conquered two nations, and was instrumental in bringing the Turks under Tang's control.
He was excuted for joining the plot against the Li shimin if I remember correctly. But due to his pass accomplishment and contribution to Tang's success, his family were spared.
Interestingly enough, he was famous for looting after victories. Many of his troops got extremely rich. He was a theif figure in Shou Tang. Couldn't be a better fit.

[TMPikachu]

I'd go with Li Shimin, he seems to be the best known one. His story with the Shaolin monks also has a huge cool factor to it

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Also don't forget A-Shi-Na Shi Er, the surrendered Tujue royal house general that put an end to Karashar. When Shin Min died, he wanted to be buried alive with him but was rejected by Li Zhi.

Hou Jun Ji is indeed quite important, he marched across the Kun Lun and crushed the Tu Yu Hun and routed the Tubo army invading Sun Pan.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

What about Tu Li, he was suppose to be the sworn brother of Li Shi Min during the civil war. When the Tujue empire was overthrown he became the Khaghan and provided Tang with support.

[Whsie]

not that he is the best like Li Jing, but I also believe Li Shi Ji or Li Ji deserves honorable mentions. He was the 2nd most important commander against the Eastern Turks since he and Li Jing were the one that trapped Xieli Khan in the end. He was also crucial in the war against Korea.

btw, are there any super generals during Tang Xuanzong's period? I have heard of all these great historical generals during Taizong's reign, but I've practically only heard of Gao Xianzhi and Guo Zhiyi as great generals after Taizong's period of elite generals. Can someone give me a good list of noticeable generals during Xuanzong's reign (and for their accomplishments)?

[esse]

Liu Wenjing, Li Xiaogong were arguably more important than most listed. Yuchi Jingde was more or less a body guard of Li Shimin, i.e a loyal brute. Qin Qiong, Zheng Zhijie, Luo Xi were good fighters, perhaps overly romanticized around the notion of Wagang (the same reason Song Jiang and his followers were romanticized). Heck, I think even ex-Sui commander Qutu Tong (spelling?) was more important than both Qin and Zheng because the army and the context of his capitulation was much more signigicant. Li Yuanba's fighting prowess was most likely a myth (?). Su Dingfang, Xue Rengui were fine generals (with the latter being better at fighting), but they ca,e later, I wouldn't consider them "pioneers", or you could have included Liu Rengui, who was more important than both.

Of the true generals, I'd rate: 1. Li Jing 2. Liu Wenjing 3. Xu Ji 4. Hou Junji 5. Li Xiaogong

How did the folklores rank the fighting prowess, I forgot? 1. Li Yuanba 2. Bei Yuanqing? 3.??? 4. Yu Yunshao 5. Luo Cheng 6. ???. Dongfang Huang was pretty cool too.

Did Luo Cheng even exist historically? Or people just "re-birthed" Luo Xi, making him a son of Luo Yi and gave him a different name.

This post has been edited by metronomad: 16 March 2007 - 03:08 AM

[naruwan]

I think Xue Ren Qui is overrated. Why is he so fictionalized anyway.

As I recall, most of his expeditions ends up in failure.

[Whsie]

Liu Wenjing sounds familiar to me. Is he the one that eventually that got executed by Tang Gaozu?

[Whsie]

naruwan, on Mar 16 2007, 03:22 AM, said:

I think Xue Ren Qui is overrated. Why is he so fictionalized anyway.

As I recall, most of his expeditions ends up in failure.

From what I've read, he was quite successful against Korea. He was able to push back the Turks and had overall a successful career. The only reason there was that failure against Tibet in 670 (I think it was Dafaisui) was because his 2nd in command general wouldn't listen to his command. Otherwise, I would think the Tang would still hold Tibet under its wings for an even longer time.

[naruwan]

Whsie, on Mar 16 2007, 01:28 AM, said:

From what I've read, he was quite successful against Korea. He was able to push back the Turks and had overall a successful career. The only reason there was that failure against Tibet in 670 (I think it was Dafaisui) was because his 2nd in command general wouldn't listen to his command. Otherwise, I would think the Tang would still hold Tibet under its wings for an even longer time.

I guess I really didn't consider the early Tang Korea expeditions to be successful...

[galvatron prime]

Li Jin ,he was the mastermind who help Li Shimin to get rid of his 2 brothers and help Li shimin to become 2nd Emperor of Tang.