[caocao74]

In the wake of the first Japanese invasion of Joseon (1592-93), as part of a truce settlement, the Ming ambassadors offered Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1594, the title 'King of Japan' in return for the full Japanese withdrawal.
However, Japan already had an Emperor, Go-Yozei.

Since there was no acknowledged tribute system established between the two countries, did the Ming Emperor recognize the legitimacy of the Japanese Emperor?

[Tyler]

Hideyoshi betrayed the Oda clan did he not?

[caocao74]

Liu Ce, on Dec 29 2004, 04:27 PM, said:

Hideyoshi betrayed the Oda clan did he not?

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He did not betray Oda Nobunaga, the first of the so-called 3 unifiers. After Nobunaga's death in 1582, Toyotomi Hideyoshi returned to the Kyoto area to defeat Akechi Mitsuhide (who had turned on Oda for a possible number of reasons). After this, Hideyoshi declared Oda's infant son, Sanboshi, the heir to Oda (sidelining the older sons), so he could inherit the domain Oda Nobunaga had established in central Japan. He certainly didn't betray the Oda clan, but after Oda Nobunaga's death, he certainly manipulated them out of any position of real authority. This forced Oda Nobutaka to join Shibata Katsuie's failed offensive vs Hideyoshi (resulting in both of their deaths), while Oda Nobuo was joined by Tokugawa Ieyasu in an indecisive Komaki campaign, but he made a separate peace and lived largely unmolested until his death in 1630.

[ignorant_fool]

[edited: late post reply... see above post regarding "hideyoshi betrayal"]

Hideyoshi just manage to calm japan down and there are alot of weapons and soldiers/generals. Many still want to fight, not ready to give up. Hideyoshi want to put "these resources to external land" to make soldiers/general happy (they make living out of fighting/plunder), prestige, and less fighting in japan. It is a good solution even if japan loses.

[caocao74]

ignorant_fool, on Dec 29 2004, 04:41 PM, said:

Hideyoshi just manage to calm japan down and there are alot of weapons and soldiers/generals. Many still want to fight, not ready to give up. Hideyoshi want to put "these resources to external land" to make soldiers/general happy (they make living out of fighting/plunder), prestige, and less fighting in japan. It is a good solution even if japan loses.

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Strange though it may seem, Hideyoshi did not send his most (potentially) troublesome 'allies' to Joseon (Tokugawa Ieyasu or Date Masamune), prefering to keep them close at hand.

Hideyoshi was, by his later years, cruel and extremely erratic, but he remained wise enough to appreciate his position.
After 1582 he rose through the ranks and posts of the Imperial Court (reaching the post of 'Kanpaku' (Regent) (later 'Taiko' (Retired Regent) after the post was passed to his nephew Hidetsugu (whom he later killed along with his family).

However the real prize was that of Shogun, but he was simply unable to secure the position due to his exceedingly low birth (the son of an ashigaru-farmer in Oda service, Yaemon). If he had pushed on successfully from Joseon, his dream was to establish the Emperor in Beijing, and thereby establishing himself and heirs as powerful arbiters of a new Empire (potentially relegating the position of Shogun).

[ignorant_fool]

caocao74, on Dec 29 2004, 10:04 PM, said:

Strange though it may seem, Hideyoshi did not send his most (potentially) troublesome 'allies' to Joseon (Tokugawa Ieyasu or Date Masamune), prefering to keep them close at hand.

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I am guessing he needs strong "allies" to secure his position. Without strong "friends", he cant sit long before being toppled. Also sending strong leaders like these two are akin to sending "tigers back to the mountain". They may setup a strong base outside japan and come back to threaten him.

caocao74, on Dec 29 2004, 10:04 PM, said:

However the real prize was that of Shogun, but he was simply unable to secure the position due to his exceedingly low birth (the son of an ashigaru-farmer in Oda service, Yaemon).  If he had pushed on successfully from Joseon, his dream was to establish the Emperor in Beijing, and thereby establishing himself and heirs as powerful arbiters of a new Empire (potentially relegating the position of Shogun).

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Yes, he cant rise because of his low birth status. This problem has also been a source of constant threat/excuse by his opponents. Noble birth generals/daimyos have problem with his low birth status, thinking that lead by "lowly peasant" is an insult. Hideyoshi felt constant threat, because japanese insistence to hierachial status. Becoming a shogun, would give him and his descendants "noble" status instead of "peasant who made good". I would think the nobles would be worried because he set an example of "peasant" challenging the nobles for position, noble exclusive position would be threatened.

Emperor of beijing/china is very difficult even by exhausting all japan resources. Do you know what age is he at that time? Such an undertaking is long term (can be 2-3 generations, looking at mongols/manchus), some how i dun know if he thinks about if he could see "that" time.

This is my speculation-> Hideyoshi may be "encouraged" by the example of "peasant becoming ming emperor" zhu yuanzhang. Ming is trying to placate this psychological behaviour by offering "Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1594, the title 'King of Japan' in return for the full Japanese withdrawal." despite "Japan already had an Emperor, Go-Yozei".

Though he set regents for his baby descendent to take over. A "peasant" baby descendent to control the nobles is really too attractive a chance for political jostling. This finally led to tokugawa era.

[caocao74]

Yes, I agree Ignrant Fool, but leaving Tokugawa Ieyasu and Date Masamune in Japan with their renowned forces was peculiar. Hideyoshi did not wish to have domestic threats assemble their forces in another country so held them at home, but then he dispatched his most loyal forces to Joseon (the Mori (and sub-clans)and the Shimazu), while placing the command of the expeditionary forces in the hands of two enemies; Kato Kiyomasa and Konishi Yukinaga (virulent Buddhist against a fervent Christian convert respectively).

Yes, and he would have been too old to arbitrate if his forces had pushed on to Beijing, but Hideyoshi was greatly concerned that his son Hideyori would push on when he came of age, taking the Toyotomi line beyond the granting of offices only to those who could (allegedly) claim descent from the Minamoto (Genji) or Taira (Heike).
To Hideyoshi, the infant Hideyori meant everything (even his mother (Yodo-gimi) was not allowed to kiss him, and his birth was the recent for the massacre of Hidetsugu and family). But, in terms of unification, Hideyoshi had achieved so much, but still left Japan with a political situation ripe for turmoil (largely because of the absence of a capable successor, despite having had a copious amount of relationships).

[ignorant_fool]

Quote

Yes, I agree Ignrant Fool, but leaving Tokugawa Ieyasu and Date Masamune in Japan with their renowned forces was peculiar. Hideyoshi did not wish to have domestic threats assemble their forces in another country so held them at home, but then he dispatched his most loyal forces to Joseon (the Mori (and sub-clans)and the Shimazu), while placing the command of the expeditionary forces in the hands of two enemies; Kato Kiyomasa and Konishi Yukinaga (virulent Buddhist against a fervent Christian convert respectively).

Just my speculation, putting his loyal men in another land and setup a powerbase is both backup plan, increase his power and stepping board. It is not too worrisome if the lieutenants/generals are your men even though the commanders are not. If there are expeditionary "failures", the commanders (Hideyoshi's enemies) would be punished (the usual "honorable suicide").

caocao74, you are well versed in japan hundred years of war.

Do you know what age Hideyoshi died and how he died? Impression-wise for me is, he lived to 50+ and died from illness. I am puzzled, he seems smart but the decendancy succession is a bungle. Also what is the hierachial status of the baby's mother?

A baby successor is not a careful move. Hideyoshi is not the kind that trust people. He needs to trust his regents to bring up his baby. To ensure a successor and better transition, it depends the successor qualities and the support/power-base he had. How much qualities can you see from a baby? And it is very difficult to make strong daimyos/generals swear loyalty to a baby.

[caocao74]

Hideyoshi was 62 when he passed away in 1598. Exact illnesses don't seem to have been identified but there was certainly a large element of mental illness. Prior to 1590, his character lacked much of the brutality that marked the tenure of Oda Nobunaga, but after that he grew increasingly erratic, cruel even (for instance ordering the seppuku of his friend and tea master Sen no Rikyu, then only to write that it was simply brought on by anger and he deeply regretted the act. The slaughter of his nephew and his family, and his over-protection of Hideyori only seem to add to is erratic mindframe.

Regarding Yodo-gimi, her ascendancy to be Hideyoshi's favourite was unofficial of course, but she was the de facto mother of the chosen successor. Therefore, as in China, the head of a household could chose an heir, not necessarily the eldest son. He would appear that Hideyoshi still had affections for his first wife (Nene / O-Ne) but he also appeared to have 'loved' many others, but the young Yodo-gimi was his favourite.

Agreed, a child succession rarely functions. While Tokugawa Ieyasu took advantage of the situation in 1600, it is also the case that so did Ishida Mitsunari (but lost); they were alll fighting initially to control that child, not protect him.

[ignorant_fool]

caocao74, on Jan 2 2005, 10:39 AM, said:

Hideyoshi was 62 when he passed away in 1598.  Exact illnesses don't seem to have been identified but there was certainly a large element of mental illness.  Prior to 1590, his character lacked much of the brutality that marked the tenure of Oda Nobunaga, but after that he grew increasingly erratic, cruel even (for instance ordering the seppuku of his friend and tea master Sen no Rikyu, then only to write that it was simply brought on by anger and he deeply regretted the act.  The slaughter of his nephew and his family, and his over-protection of Hideyori only seem to add to is erratic mindframe.

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Thanks, seems like some form delusionary paranoid schizophrenia. But mild form i guess, because if it is extreme, he would likely die of "human cause"(assination, poisoning). The people around and below him would fearing for the lives and retaliate back "indiscretely" if they think he is "crazy" even though he is in power.

[caocao74]

ignorant_fool, on Jan 3 2005, 02:16 AM, said:

Thanks, seems like some form delusionary paranoid schizophrenia. But mild form i guess, because if it is extreme, he would likely die of "human cause"(assination, poisoning). The people around and below him would fearing for the lives and retaliate back "indiscretely" if they think he is "crazy" even though he is in power.

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Throughout Japanese history, assassination of powerful, but dangerously paranoid leaders is not common.
Hideyoshi's behaviour can be equalled by the first Shogun of the Kamakura 'bakufu' (幕府) (Shogunate in English), Minamoto no Yoritomo, whose victims included his younger brother (Yoshitsune, the 'star' of many TV dramas, manga and 'kabuki'), and some of his most loyal warriors, including the Yasuda family.
Yet, no one challenged his position as Shogun (r.1189-99), other than the Insei (院生)(Cloistered) Emperor Go-Shirakawa, but there was never an attempt upon his life (at least not outside of Yoritomo's paranoid mind).