[Manchuconqueror]

Can anyone help me with the military on Qing Dynasty? I read about Bannerman, but descriptions were vague etc. I am particularly interested in Unique military units..

Any help is welcome :) . Thanx people.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Manchuconqueror, on Jun 18 2004, 07:42 AM, said:

Can anyone help me with the military on Qing Dynasty?  I read about Bannerman, but descriptions were vague etc.  I am particularly interested in Unique military units.. 

Any help is welcome  :) . Thanx people.

Here are some info:

Pictures and types of Qing army's units:
http://www.toy-soldi...inese-army.html

From http://www.internet-...ynasty#Military

Qing's military

The development of Qing's military system can be divided into two broad periods seperated by the Taiping rebellion (1850 - 64). The early Qing imperial military system was a continuation of the Manchu bannermen system developed by Nurhachi and refined by Hong Taiji. These were supplemented by the Green Standard Army (lüyingbing|绿营兵) which outnumbered the banner troops three to one. The Green Standard Army was made up of ethnic Han Chinese troops who had surrendered to the Manchus during their conquest of China, and led by a mixture of Banner and Green Standard officers. Both the banner troops and Green Standard were standing armies, paid for by central government. In addition, regional governments from provincial down to village level maintained their own irregular local militias for police duties and disaster relieve. These militias were usually granted a small annual stipend for part time service obligations. They received very limited military drill and were not considered combat troops.

The Banner troops consisted of seperate branches divided along ethnic lines, namely Manchurian and Mongolian. There was also a third branch of Chinese Bannermen consisted of those who had joined the Manchus before their conquest of China. However the Chinese bannermen were not regarded as equal to the other two branches due to their late addition to the Manchu cause, and their ethnic Han Chinese backgrounds. After the conquest the roles of the Chinese Banner troops were quickly subsumed by the Green Standard Armies. The socio-military nature of the Banner system dictated that population within each branch and their sub-division into eight banners were hereditary and rigid, and only under special circumstances were social movements between banners permitted. The Green Standard Army was originally intended to be a professional volunteer force, but during the protracted period of peace in China during the 18th to mid 19th century, recruits from established farming communities dwindled. Not least hindered by Neo-Confucianism's negative view on military carreers. In order to maintain its strength, the Green Standard Army began to internalize, and gradually became hereditary.

After the conquest, the approximately 200,000 strong Manchu Banner Army was evenly divided, half was designated the Forbidden Eight Banner Army (Jinlübaqi|禁旅八旗)and stationed in Beijing. They served both as the capital's garrison and the Qing government's main strike force. The rest of the Banner troops were distributed to guard key cities in China. These were known as Territorial Eight Banner Army (zhufanbaqi|驻防八旗). The Manchu rulers were aware of their minority status, and reinforced a strict policy of racially segregating Manchus and Mongols from Han Chinese for fear of their being assimilated by Han culture. This policy applies directly to the Banner garrisons most of which occupied a seperate walled zone within the cities they were stationed in. In cases where there were limitation of space such as in Qingzhou (青州), a new fortified town was purposely erected to house the Banner garrison. Beijing being the imperial seat was made a special case. Dorgon ordered the entire Chinese population forcibly relocated to the southern suburbs. The walled city was then portioned out to the eight Banners, each responsibled for guarding a section of the city that surrounded the Forbidden City palace (紫禁城).

Due to their nomadic tradition, the Manchu and Mongolian Banner troops specialized in calvary operations, while the Chinese Banner troops and Green standards filled the roles of infantry, musketeers, artillery, and sappers. The policy of using Banner troops as territorial garrison was not just to protect but more importantly to inspire awe in the Chinese populous at the expense of the Banner troop's expetise as calvary. As a result, after a century of peace the Territorial Banner troops had deteriorated greatly in their combat worthiness. This is mirrored by a similar if slower decline in the Green Stadard Army. As time passes, soldiering became merely a form of supplementary income. Soldiers and commanders alike neglected training in pursuit of their own economic activities during the long period of peace in China in the 18th century. When the Taiping Rebellion broke out in 1850s the Qing Court found out belately that both the Banner and Green Standard troops could no longer be counted on to put down rebellions let alone kept foreign 'barbarians' at bay.

The Qing military forces suffered a series of disasters at the hands of the Taiping rebels cumulating in the lost of Jinling (金陵) - present day Nanjing (南京) which resulted in the massacre of the entire Manchu population there. Shortly there after rebel expeditionary forces penetrated as far north as the suburbs of Tianjin (天津). In desperation the Qing court ordered a Chinese scholar Zhen Goufan (曾國藩)to reorganize the regional and village militias (Tuanyong|团勇,Xianyong|乡勇) for defence against the Taiping rebels. The force Zhen created was known as Xian Army (Xianjün|湘军), after the region it was raised. Xian Army was a hybrid between regional militia and standing army. It was better trained and led than local militias, but was paid for in most parts by regional coffers and funds its commanders could muster. Xian Army and the Huai Army (淮军) that came after it collectively called Yongying (勇营) was built on the neo-confucian idea of troops being loyal to their immediate superiors and the area which they were raised. This gave them, at least in the short term a high level of esprit de corp. However in the long run it encouraged cronyism amongst the commanders and laid the seeds to Qing dynasty's eventual downfall, and to warlordism in its wake.

By late 1800s, China descended into a semi colonial state, even the most conservative elements in the Qing court could no longer ignore China's military weakness in contrast to the "babarians" literally beating on its gates. The new western weaponry such as repeating rifles and steam driven dreadnoghts battleships have rendered China's traditionally equipped armies useless. Attempts were made to reform military institutions and to train certain units in westernized drills, tactics and weaponry. These units were collectively called the New Model Army (Xingshilujün|新式陆军). The most successful being the "North Sea" Army (Beiyangjün|北洋军) under the overall supervision and control of the Chinese general, future Republic president and abortive emperor, Yuan Shikai (袁世凯).

[MING-LOYALIST]

Early Qing had eight banners.divided into four colours.
2 YELLOW banners.
2 RED banners.
2 BLUE banners.
2 WHITE banners(actually white not gray.).
As well as a cannon corps called the red cannons.

Example when Huang Tai Ji died.
His son Haoge had support of the 2 Yellow banners while King Dorgon and his brother king Dodo had the support of the two White banners.

Later reforms had manchu/mongol banners and Han green standards.

this multi ethnic army was very powerful but sometimes did not do well.
Once during Yongzheng's reign on a campaign against the dzungars because of some ethnical problems , when the army came under attack the Mongol banners fled and the Han green standards did not bother to come to help the Manchu banners. this left the Manchu banners to fight by themselves, they were victorious but suffered very heavy losses.

Typical big battle involved a massive cannon bombardment followed by a cavalry charge.

[Liang Jieming]

Jieming
DragonSeedLegacy

[astralis]

they weren't just colors either. each banner had a specific task. by the late qing, the green bannermen were little better than the equivalent of a militarized police force.

[Karakhan]

I know the Manchu organize the Xibe, Daur, Evenki (aka Solon), and Hezhe/Nanai into banners, which one did they fall in? I think Xibe had their own and the other 3, since they was all small in population, combined into "New Manchu"

[MING-LOYALIST]

During early Qing years the banners were only called by colours.
later on they got names like attacking dragons and leaping tigers.

There was no green banners. Its called the green standards(or green camp).
this was a very organised force and the backbone of the QING army.
The green camp was not a ragtag militia, it was a paid and trained, displined force.

Qing helmets kicked A**.