[yau]

It's weird that the most influential historians are the foreign names. John King Fairbank may be one of the well-known for its political influence on sino-american policy. Jonathan Spence is fast getting popular in china after his books were translated by a taiwan publishers. Matteo Ricci's contribution during Ming Dynasty was formidable and unbelievably respected by the confucius scholars of the his difficult time.

I'm always stunned when I read their comments on chinese culture. They was all detached from the mindset of chinese cultures, their background enabled them to analyse the chinese cultures with fresh and different perspectives. Though historians like Ray Huang has also a tremendous influence, his methodology of Macro History is all based on the west.

I always wonder any achievements by modern chinese historians. But are there any?

[Yun]

Yau, the most internationally influential names in Chinese history-writing are English-speakers because English is the most internationally influential language ;)

However, I do agree that not being brought up in an orthodox Confucian and/or Chinese nationalist environment does make it easier for a person to see issues from a less parochial perspective. I'm a Singaporean Chinese, and I find that even I am able not to be influenced so heavily by the traditional Chinese value system (partly because I grew up as a Christian).

I would recommend as my favourite modern Chinese historian Professor Ge Jianxiong 葛剑雄 of the Insitute of Historical Geography at Fudan University, certainly one of the most independent thinkers in a field that is in China often constrained by political sensitivities. I had the honour and pleasure of meeting him during a trip to Shanghai last year, and he kindly gave me two volumes of the History of Migratory Patterns in China 《中国移民史》, for which he is the main editor. His current work is mainly in population statistics and migration, with an emphasis on the Fragmentation era, but he is also working closely with Harvard and Berkeley on the China GIS (Geographical Information Systems) project, which is essentially producing electronic and digital (thus "interactive") historical maps of China.

For a good taste of Prof. Ge's refreshingly unconventional views, I recommend his All Under Heaven 《普天之下》 (1989) and Unity and Division 《统一与分裂》 (1991), which both question whether a unified empire was truly the norm in Chinese history, and whether unity was really better for the country in the long run than division. Another interesting book that he co-wrote recently with one of his students is What is History? 《历史学是什么》 (2002), which offers a wider range of his views on various aspects of Chinese history and historiography.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I'm not well-informed in the history academia field, but I do know there are many western sinologists who had a great influence on new theory of chinese history and culture.

[thirdgumi]

I like to read both Chinese and non Chinese historians' works, because they give me different perspectives.
A Chinese historian from Taiwan, called Qian Mu (钱穆), his works are very nice.
If you are interested on archeology, there was a Chinese archeologist called Su Bing Qi (苏秉琦), his was the top Chinese archeologist, his works are a "must'.
Just for the beginners, there was a Chinese historian called Zhang Yin Lin (张荫麟), his work called "Zhong Guo Shi Gang" (中国史纲), a nice book for beginners.

[RollingWave]

I think.... how to write history is a very complicated matter and acturally to a extent a very personal matter of what you like.....

In truth.... I don't think anyone can denie the fact that no matter how objective a historian try to be... they will all be more or less blinded by sterotypes/bias/personal opinion/background etc.... as you meantioned... the western historian's writing on chinese history was detached from traditional Chinese mindset.... but at the same tiem it is also bounded by their own western oriented mindset.....

There are many many brilliant Chinese modern history writers... the biggest names have mostly been meantioned already such as Qian Mu and Ray Huang ( I have his marco history of china book and I read some parts of Qian Mu's writing) and others like Tao Bei Chuang (陶百川) ..... the sad part is for most of the 20th century and to a great extend even today (espically on teh mainland) there is no real freedom of opinion.... and writing history has always been and always will be a matter of political opinions... both these facts severally limit these brilliant modern chinese historians....

I would argue however.. that for the most part western historian's chinese history influence may be somewhat exaggerated as since the late 19th century almost all chinese have this "the moon is rounder in foreign land" mentality... since I acturally live in Taiwan.... I will tell you that a lot of the so called big history sellers by foreigners are often more of a marketing success feeding off this mentality (and sometimes political correctness) than real epic work...... although I have no doubt of their influence on how to record history.... I have doubts in their actural work on chinese history being truely as influencial and great.

For me at least.... I think history should be written in two ways, one is the presentation of history facts... these should really be as unbaised as possible (though it is VERY hard IMHO espically as the issue gets bigger and deeper.. one HAVE to make some judgement ).... the best history works are those written with true feelings and true passion about the events.. writing it as you are acturally connect to it through the legacy it passed on to you in some way.

One of my favorite reads over the past few years (and i'm not that old so the past few years is quiet a bit of my life) has been Yu Chiu Yu(余秋雨)'s 2 book "the hard voyage of culture"(文化苦旅) "the notes of mountainese seclusion"(山居筆記)
although it's not a total true history work... it is what I like the most... history written with real passion, interlinked with history events and his own past ... spawned from his trips through historical sites or from memories and events .... it is a really good example of the art form of history.

What I personally think anyway.... although I am not and wouldn't consider myself a expert in history (and i don't major in history at Univ anyway) I think i've read my share of real history works to give an opinion..... most of the papers i've written try to sound as they are totally unbiased but give many assumption based on partial evidence or obvious bias (dismissing traditional statements without bring up very convincing arguments)

[Lord Anatolius]

Actually, I've recently been thinking of buying a comprehensive Chinese history book (from prehistory to modern era or as near to that as possible). What would you say is the best 'introductory' text for a foreigner?

Should it be Western Sinologists, like mentioned Fairbank, Spench or unmentioned Roberts, or should I go for a Chinese like Ray Huang, Qian Mu or Tao Bei Chuang? Note that it should be not to expensive and more or less available in a big bookshop.

[yau]

I get too used to reading chinese perspectives on history. Most of them are not new to me anymore, however, i was very impressed by Bai Yang (柏楊)'s Outline of Chinese History (中國人史綱). It's a wonderful fiction style that briefly describes what was happened in 5000 years in the middle kingdom. His comment is insightful though sometimes biased and radical. If you can read chinese, it's a must-read. see here: http://www.best100cl..._h/china_03.htm

Jonathan Spence' The Search for Modern China is another wonderful piece of work. He's good in details, provides a new methodology to review the 500 struggling years of china, from Ming Dynasty to the Communist's "open-door" policy.

However, i'm trying to read the books of some suggested names. Probably we can discuss more on them later~

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hey, Baiyang is a famous chinese historian in Taiwan. I hope to read his books some day. He's a professor of Chinese Studies at Central University in Taiwan, isn't it? :D

[yau]

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Hey, Baiyang is a famous chinese historian in Taiwan. I hope to read his books some day. He's a professor of Chinese Studies at Central University in Taiwan, isn't it?  :D

I don't think so. However, there's a professor Li Rui Teng in the National Central University who spent a respectful effort in collecting all Baiyang's works.

Baiyang is most well-known for his "Jam Assertion" on chinese culture. He thought that after 2000 year Confucius' "invasion" in china, chinese culture is no diffierent from a jam (or watering mud). No matter what you throw into it, you can't see any ripple. Not only can it fail to stimulate the lazy and lull chinese, but it was also submerged in it.

His most famous book is "The Ugly Chinese", which makes a bombardment on the traditional value of chinese, criticised all the detesting chinese habits. The comment from the well-known chinese traditionalist instantly drew a wide attention, from media, academics and general public.

Almost all of his articles were put on the internet. Get it by Google. :P

[Yun]

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One of my favorite reads over the past few years (and i'm not that old so the past few years is quiet a bit of my life) has been Yu Chiu Yu(余秋雨)'s 2 book "the hard voyage of culture"(文化苦旅) "the notes of mountainese seclusion"(山居筆記)
although it's not a total true history work... it is what I like the most... history written with real passion, interlinked with history events and his own past ... spawned from his trips through historical sites or from memories and events .... it is a really good example of the art form of history.

Yu Qiuyu certainly writes well, but he takes terrible liberties with historical facts, doesn't bother to research his topic carefully, and (worst of all) denies it all when he's confronted with the evidence. His success has made him arrogant and unscrupulous, which is why there's now a backlash against all his inaccuracies in the Chinese academic circle.

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get too used to reading chinese perspectives on history. Most of them are not new to me anymore, however, i was very impressed by Bai Yang (柏楊)'s Outline of Chinese History (中國人史綱). It's a wonderful fiction style that briefly describes what was happened in 5000 years in the middle kingdom. His comment is insightful though sometimes biased and radical. If you can read chinese, it's a must-read. see here: http://www.best100cl..._h/china_03.htm

Is the name pronounced as Bo Yang or Bai Yang? I've heard claims made for both.

Anyway, Bo Yang (which is a pen name) is not an academic either, but I've been very impressed by his work. His 中國人史綱 is what got me hooked on Age of Fragmentation history in 1998, because he presented its events so clearly and with such ironic humour. His views are indeed too radical and iconoclastic at times (although always refreshing) - he tends to condemn anything Confucian while regarding democracy as a panacea for any political ill. But he has good reason to be radical and cynical about Chinese traditions, because he was imprisoned for many years by the KMT regime in Taiwan, simply for making fun of Chiang Kai-shek in an allegorical cartoon.

Another work (still ongoing) by Bo Yang that I've benefited immensely from is his translation of the Zizhi Tongjian Benmo into plain Chinese. This is a classic historical work that extends from the Warring States to the beginning of the Song, but was inaccessible to most readers because it was in classical Chinese. Bo Yang has spent the last years of his life (he's now in his 80s, I think) translating it into a multi-volume series, adding maps and some explanations along the way. The maps are wonderful - the only way to improve on them would be to make them electronic and interactive (which is what I'm hoping to do someday!).

[yimanrongdi]

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However, I do agree that not being brought up in an orthodox Confucian and/or Chinese nationalist environment does make it easier for a person to see issues from a less parochial perspective. I'm a Singaporean Chinese, and I find that even I am able not to be influenced so heavily by the traditional Chinese value system (partly because I grew up as a Christian).

It had basically nothing to do with your background but instead more of the sense and cognisable.

Quote

Another work (still ongoing) by Bo Yang that I've benefited immensely from is his translation of the Zizhi Tongjian Benmo into plain Chinese. This is a classic historical work that extends from the Warring States to the beginning of the Song, but was inaccessible to most readers because it was in classical Chinese. Bo Yang has spent the last years of his life (he's now in his 80s, I think) translating it into a multi-volume series, adding maps and some explanations along the way. The maps are wonderful - the only way to improve on them would be to make them electronic and interactive (which is what I'm hoping to do someday!).

Im sure it should be Tongjian Jishi Benmo 柏杨版通鉴纪事本末 show here on the title, which is 38 volumes (some useful maps). However I would not recommend this book to any others for a start off.

[Yun]

Yimanrongdi, you're right - the full title should be 柏杨版通鉴纪事本末.

Lord Anatolius, my personal recommendation of an introductory text for an English-speaking reader would be Ray Huang's "China: A Macrohistory", already mentioned earlier.

[RollingWave]

I've read China: a marco history (the chinese version anyway) and I have some problems with some of his reasonings:/.... I think he try to apply modern standards to history a bit too much ... though I guess it would be a good book for someone who doesn't know much about chinese history and want an overview... I personally think he oversimplify the vast complexity that often lead to certain events... and again this is rather personally speaking but I think he is slightly biased in his opinions on the different dynasties.....

Yes Yu doesn't really check his facts then again he's not a historian... and I agree his books after these 2 aren't nearly as good as he seem to got too full of himself.... but I don't see why the media should really complain about the historical accuretcy of what is basically a cutural literature work and not serious history work....

[yau]

RollingWave, you're right there!

I often thinks that Ray Huang was too eager to develop a stream of thoughts in chinese history, but what he said unfortunately was based on the weak postulate. Seems that his reason for the fall of any dynasty is that they failed to make their governence "quantifiable". I always seek for a clear explanation on that, though after reading almost all his history book, i still can't get a better understanding on it. And I assume it's something that can't be understood anyway.

Comparing to the theory of a social contract or property rights, his postulate just can't be proved in today.

However, Ray Huang is a renowned historian that deserves reputation. He taught us a comprehensive method to read a history. No matter it's geographical, economic, or political, they can all influence deeply on chinese history. Traditionally, chinese tended to judge the history based on the vice or virtue of the emperor. It's all a moral discussion, and no different views can be allowed. He attacked it all the way and gained a respect in chinese community.

[RollingWave]

That's what I'm mostly talking aout Vau... he try to explain the downfall of dynasties sometimes by applying modern standards of administration and economics on them... when in fact it seems to most of the more mainstream thought that it's usually a combination of political mistakes and corruptions and many other factors that leads to their fall in general....

But still I do not deny he is a great historian and that his book is good for begininer.... and I still don't think anyone can be all that unbiased... hell even reading my old highschool history textbook you can see some hint of bias in those too...