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I wanted to know how Mongolian history was passed down to the present. I remember reading somewhere that the Secret History of the Mongols was written with Chinese characters which represented the sound of the Mongolian language. I'm guessing the Yuanshi, written in Chinese, also contains alot of Mongolian history.
Are there other historical texts, written in Classic Mongolian, that details the period of the rise and fall of the Mongol Empire?
One of the reasons I asked this question because I am interested in how Mongolian names are written in Chinese. Are names like 拖雷， 术赤， 铁木真 a result of the transliteration from modern Mongolian or are they transliterated from the Mongolian pronunciation during the Yuan Dynasty.
Also, do the modern Mongolian pronunciations of those names made in reference to Classic Mongolian historical texts or are they transliterated from Chinese sources such as the Yuanshi or Secret History of the Mongols?
Let me clarify what I'm trying to say... imagine People A and People B. People A and B kept historical records of themselves and each other, but People B's records were destroyed. Present day: How does People B pronounce the names of historical People B figures?
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Mongolian Historical Texts
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#1
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Posted 07 January 2008 - 05:48 PM
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Posted 07 January 2008 - 09:15 PM
tongyan, on Jan 7 2008, 05:48 PM, said:
I wanted to know how Mongolian history was passed down to the present. I remember reading somewhere that the Secret History of the Mongols was written with Chinese characters which represented the sound of the Mongolian language. I'm guessing the Yuanshi, written in Chinese, also contains alot of Mongolian history.
Are there other historical texts, written in Classic Mongolian, that details the period of the rise and fall of the Mongol Empire?
One of the reasons I asked this question because I am interested in how Mongolian names are written in Chinese. Are names like 拖雷， 术赤， 铁木真 a result of the transliteration from modern Mongolian or are they transliterated from the Mongolian pronunciation during the Yuan Dynasty.
Also, do the modern Mongolian pronunciations of those names made in reference to Classic Mongolian historical texts or are they transliterated from Chinese sources such as the Yuanshi or Secret History of the Mongols?
Let me clarify what I'm trying to say... imagine People A and People B. People A and B kept historical records of themselves and each other, but People B's records were destroyed. Present day: How does People B pronounce the names of historical People B figures?
Are there other historical texts, written in Classic Mongolian, that details the period of the rise and fall of the Mongol Empire?
One of the reasons I asked this question because I am interested in how Mongolian names are written in Chinese. Are names like 拖雷， 术赤， 铁木真 a result of the transliteration from modern Mongolian or are they transliterated from the Mongolian pronunciation during the Yuan Dynasty.
Also, do the modern Mongolian pronunciations of those names made in reference to Classic Mongolian historical texts or are they transliterated from Chinese sources such as the Yuanshi or Secret History of the Mongols?
Let me clarify what I'm trying to say... imagine People A and People B. People A and B kept historical records of themselves and each other, but People B's records were destroyed. Present day: How does People B pronounce the names of historical People B figures?
I don't know about the nature of how Classic Mongolian texts were transliterated of translated but from what I know about the nature of how Mongol history was passed down to the present, we mostly have knowledge of Mongol history through other civilizations who have written about them: China, Middle East, Europe etc... This was because the Mongols never wrote their own history down with the exception of The Secret History of the Mongols, but even then it's likely the author himself was not a Mongol even though that history was written for the Mongol royals.
The Mongols during Genghis Khan's time did not have any writing system of their own, since that was generally the case for nomadic peoples. So Genghis Khan brought scribes from different peoples who already possessed writing systems. I can only recall a few of them: Chinese, Tibetan, Uighur and there was I think Persian script or some other Middle Eastern script.
Some historians argue that because most of the Mongol history is written by foreign peoples, almost all of whom they conquered, the Mongols are unfairly viewed in a bad light or at least that their positive achievements are overlooked.
This post has been edited by JiG: 07 January 2008 - 09:22 PM
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Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:56 AM
The Secret History of the Mongols is the best known history of the Mongol people, but there are many similar works in other conquered territories, such as Persia, which cam under the control of the Ilkhanate. If it was not for these records, we would not know much of the conquest and subsequent rule of these places. Of course, other people who had contact with te Mongols because they were at war with them are also sources (albeit bias ones).
The other sources you can look at are the accounts of merchants such as Marco Polo and Jacob D'Ancona (if you believe the latter).
One thing which is interesting is that the Mongols traded with the West long before they invaded it. In fact, the Mongols used these traders as advanced scouts for the Army, reporting on the availability of crops, fodder and the like, as well as the populations of cities and the location of enemy forces. It stands to reason that there will be many more sources on the Mongols that will lie in regional records around Europe.
The other sources you can look at are the accounts of merchants such as Marco Polo and Jacob D'Ancona (if you believe the latter).
One thing which is interesting is that the Mongols traded with the West long before they invaded it. In fact, the Mongols used these traders as advanced scouts for the Army, reporting on the availability of crops, fodder and the like, as well as the populations of cities and the location of enemy forces. It stands to reason that there will be many more sources on the Mongols that will lie in regional records around Europe.
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Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:41 AM
1. Secret History of Mongols
The Secret History of the Mongols (Mongolian: Монголын нууц товчоо; Mongolyn Nuuts Tovchoo) is the first literary work of Mongolian culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Hi..._of_the_Mongols
2. Jami al-Tawarikh
The Jami al-tawarikh ("Compendium of Chronicles") or Universal History is an Iranian work of literature and history written by Rashid al-Din at the start of the 14th century.
http://en.wikipedia....ami_al-Tawarikh
3. The Travels of Marco Polo
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Marco_Polo
4. History of the Mongols, which we call Tartars (Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus)
Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, (c. 1180-1252) was one of the first Europeans to enter the court of the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire and the author of the earliest important Western work on northern and central Asia, Rus, and other regions of the Tatar dominion.
http://en.wikipedia....ian_del_Carpini
5. William of Rubruck's Account of the Mongols
http://en.wikipedia....liam_of_Rubruck
William crossed the Black Sea, traversed the Crimea and then continued eastward; nine days after crossing the Don he met Sartaq Khan, ruler of the Kipchak Khanate. The Khan sent William on to his father, Batu Khan, at Sarai near the Volga. Batu refused conversion but sent the ambassadors on to the great Mongol Mangu Khan. They reached Karakorum at Easter, 1254.
6. Other relevant travelogues narrate the journeys of Chinese envoys or visitors tothe Mongols, most of whom went to see Chinggis Khan during his stay in Trans-oxaniaintheearly1220s.AstheirauthorspassedthroughtheWesternLiaoterritorysoon after its dissolution, most of them retain some reference to its history. Thetwo most important travelogues are those of Chang Chun and Yelu Chucai. ChangChun (1148–1227), the patriarch of the Daoist Quanzhen sect who was summonedby Chinggis Khan due to his erudition in the science of elixirs, set out for CentralAsia in 1220. He met the Mongol Khan at Samarqand in 1222, and came backto north China in 1224
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji
http://depts.washing.../changchun.html
Here is amazing letter of Chinggis Khan
7. Mongolian language documents in the Vatican archive, where several Mongol Bichig documents are still kept
http://asv.vatican.v...h/mongolian.htm
Letter by the Ilkhan of Persia Aryun
to Pope Nicholas IV (1290)
ASV, A.A., Arm. I-XVIII, 1801, 3r
LETTER BY THE GREAT KHAN GÜYÜK
TO POPE INNOCENT IV
s.l. 1246 November 3rd-11th
http://asv.vatican.v...oc/1246.htm#top
8. There are also many Mongolian historical documents in Beijing, Taiwan, Russia and Iran
9. The Altan Tobchi
(Mongolian: Алтан товч, Golden History) is a national chronicle and set of Mongolian judicial laws over historical content in the 17th century. It was written in 1604. Some parts of the 13th century Mongolian The Secret History of the Mongols appear in Altan Tobchi.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Altan_Tobchi
10. There are many coins bearing seal/ claim and name of Mongol Khans of Great Mongol Empire of XIII-XIX centuries. The coins are divided furthermore into 5 separate categories that can be viewed at the top of the page.
They are:
Great Mongol Khagans
Chakhatayid
Golden Horde
Ilkhans
Yuan State
http://mongoliancoins.com/site.php
The Secret History of the Mongols (Mongolian: Монголын нууц товчоо; Mongolyn Nuuts Tovchoo) is the first literary work of Mongolian culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Hi..._of_the_Mongols
2. Jami al-Tawarikh
The Jami al-tawarikh ("Compendium of Chronicles") or Universal History is an Iranian work of literature and history written by Rashid al-Din at the start of the 14th century.
http://en.wikipedia....ami_al-Tawarikh
3. The Travels of Marco Polo
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Marco_Polo
4. History of the Mongols, which we call Tartars (Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus)
Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, (c. 1180-1252) was one of the first Europeans to enter the court of the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire and the author of the earliest important Western work on northern and central Asia, Rus, and other regions of the Tatar dominion.
http://en.wikipedia....ian_del_Carpini
5. William of Rubruck's Account of the Mongols
http://en.wikipedia....liam_of_Rubruck
William crossed the Black Sea, traversed the Crimea and then continued eastward; nine days after crossing the Don he met Sartaq Khan, ruler of the Kipchak Khanate. The Khan sent William on to his father, Batu Khan, at Sarai near the Volga. Batu refused conversion but sent the ambassadors on to the great Mongol Mangu Khan. They reached Karakorum at Easter, 1254.
6. Other relevant travelogues narrate the journeys of Chinese envoys or visitors tothe Mongols, most of whom went to see Chinggis Khan during his stay in Trans-oxaniaintheearly1220s.AstheirauthorspassedthroughtheWesternLiaoterritorysoon after its dissolution, most of them retain some reference to its history. Thetwo most important travelogues are those of Chang Chun and Yelu Chucai. ChangChun (1148–1227), the patriarch of the Daoist Quanzhen sect who was summonedby Chinggis Khan due to his erudition in the science of elixirs, set out for CentralAsia in 1220. He met the Mongol Khan at Samarqand in 1222, and came backto north China in 1224
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji
http://depts.washing.../changchun.html
Here is amazing letter of Chinggis Khan
Quote
Chinghis Khan's letter of invitation to Ch'ang ch'un]
//[p.37] Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.
//[p.37] Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.
7. Mongolian language documents in the Vatican archive, where several Mongol Bichig documents are still kept
http://asv.vatican.v...h/mongolian.htm
Letter by the Ilkhan of Persia Aryun
to Pope Nicholas IV (1290)
ASV, A.A., Arm. I-XVIII, 1801, 3r
Quote
"The three documents written by the chancery of the Mongolian Ilkhans of Persia are respectively: a safe-conduct of 1267 (or at latest of 1279) issued by Abaya to a papal embassy on his way back to the West; a letter by Aryun to Pope Nicholas IV «the fifth day of the new moon of the first month of the Summer of the year of the Tiger » (14th May 1290) and a letter by Gasan to Pope Boniface VIII of 1302 on the negotiations for the common attack plans against the Mamelukes of Egypt, who then were also the lords of Syria."
LETTER BY THE GREAT KHAN GÜYÜK
TO POPE INNOCENT IV
s.l. 1246 November 3rd-11th
http://asv.vatican.v...oc/1246.htm#top
8. There are also many Mongolian historical documents in Beijing, Taiwan, Russia and Iran
9. The Altan Tobchi
(Mongolian: Алтан товч, Golden History) is a national chronicle and set of Mongolian judicial laws over historical content in the 17th century. It was written in 1604. Some parts of the 13th century Mongolian The Secret History of the Mongols appear in Altan Tobchi.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Altan_Tobchi
10. There are many coins bearing seal/ claim and name of Mongol Khans of Great Mongol Empire of XIII-XIX centuries. The coins are divided furthermore into 5 separate categories that can be viewed at the top of the page.
They are:
Great Mongol Khagans
Chakhatayid
Golden Horde
Ilkhans
Yuan State
http://mongoliancoins.com/site.php
This post has been edited by Zorigo: 08 January 2008 - 01:06 PM
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Posted 09 January 2008 - 10:30 AM
That was a very learned post, Zorigo.
I was quite interested to read that the Vatican Secret Library holds some letters from the Ilkhanate Khans. The dating of the 1290 letter is particularly so. The first Chinese emissary to the West was Rabban Sauma, a Nestorian Christian bishop sent by Arghun to Rome, England and France in 1287, and returning in 1288. The letter in teh Vatican is therefore not the original missive in this correspondence.
Since Sauma also visited Philip the Fair of France, and Edward I of England, I thought I would see if France holds similar correspondence. Sure enough, the French National Archives hold a 1289 letter to Philip the Fair, a picture of which is below.
180px_ArghunLetterToPhilippeLeBelExtract1289.jpg (10K)
Number of downloads: 13
On the basis of this, there must be still more letters which will be revealed by a little investigation.
I was quite interested to read that the Vatican Secret Library holds some letters from the Ilkhanate Khans. The dating of the 1290 letter is particularly so. The first Chinese emissary to the West was Rabban Sauma, a Nestorian Christian bishop sent by Arghun to Rome, England and France in 1287, and returning in 1288. The letter in teh Vatican is therefore not the original missive in this correspondence.
Since Sauma also visited Philip the Fair of France, and Edward I of England, I thought I would see if France holds similar correspondence. Sure enough, the French National Archives hold a 1289 letter to Philip the Fair, a picture of which is below.
180px_ArghunLetterToPhilippeLeBelExtract1289.jpg (10K)
Number of downloads: 13
On the basis of this, there must be still more letters which will be revealed by a little investigation.
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Posted 09 January 2008 - 03:32 PM
William O'Chee, on Jan 9 2008, 10:30 AM, said:
That was a very learned post, Zorigo.
I was quite interested to read that the Vatican Secret Library holds some letters from the Ilkhanate Khans. The dating of the 1290 letter is particularly so. The first Chinese emissary to the West was Rabban Sauma, a Nestorian Christian bishop sent by Arghun to Rome, England and France in 1287, and returning in 1288. The letter in teh Vatican is therefore not the original missive in this correspondence.
Since Sauma also visited Philip the Fair of France, and Edward I of England, I thought I would see if France holds similar correspondence. Sure enough, the French National Archives hold a 1289 letter to Philip the Fair, a picture of which is below.
180px_Ar...ract1289.jpg
On the basis of this, there must be still more letters which will be revealed by a little investigation.
I was quite interested to read that the Vatican Secret Library holds some letters from the Ilkhanate Khans. The dating of the 1290 letter is particularly so. The first Chinese emissary to the West was Rabban Sauma, a Nestorian Christian bishop sent by Arghun to Rome, England and France in 1287, and returning in 1288. The letter in teh Vatican is therefore not the original missive in this correspondence.
Since Sauma also visited Philip the Fair of France, and Edward I of England, I thought I would see if France holds similar correspondence. Sure enough, the French National Archives hold a 1289 letter to Philip the Fair, a picture of which is below.
180px_Ar...ract1289.jpgOn the basis of this, there must be still more letters which will be revealed by a little investigation.
Arghun's letter is stamped with his official seal, which is in Chinese characters.
The seal reads:
輔國安民之寶 (The Seal of the Upholder of the Empire and Bringer of Peace to the People)
Link to larger image:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ArghunL...Extract1289.jpg
I guess this seal was sent to Arghun from Dadu (Beijing)?
I'm actually surprised that Arghun would use this imperial seal in his official correspondence with foreign states. He must have known what the words meant since at least one person in his court (Bar Sauma/Rabban Sauma) was born in Beijing and presumably had knowledge of Chinese.
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Posted 09 January 2008 - 08:01 PM
tongyan, on Jan 9 2008, 03:32 PM, said:
Arghun's letter is stamped with his official seal, which is in Chinese characters.
The seal reads:
輔國安民之寶 (The Seal of the Upholder of the Empire and Bringer of Peace to the People)
I guess this seal was sent to Arghun from Dadu (Beijing)?
I'm actually surprised that Arghun would use this imperial seal in his official correspondence with foreign states. He must have known what the words meant since at least one person in his court (Bar Sauma/Rabban Sauma) was born in Beijing and presumably had knowledge of Chinese.
The seal reads:
輔國安民之寶 (The Seal of the Upholder of the Empire and Bringer of Peace to the People)
I guess this seal was sent to Arghun from Dadu (Beijing)?
I'm actually surprised that Arghun would use this imperial seal in his official correspondence with foreign states. He must have known what the words meant since at least one person in his court (Bar Sauma/Rabban Sauma) was born in Beijing and presumably had knowledge of Chinese.
Interesting that the letter is in Mongolian Script , with Seal in is in Chinese characters, by the Ilkhan of Persia Arghun to Pope Nicholas IV (1290).
what a mix
Mongolian transcription
....... busud ali-ba irgen
über-ün nom bičig yier ...
..................... jalbariqa bui
mišiq-a in nom tngri tur taiigči
ünen bui. Edüge
il qan mišiq-a in nom tur
ortuqai hemečü ilečügü či.
Sayin ečege manu mišiq-a in
nom ünen-ü tula, sayin
emege in ben šilmtur bui bülüge hemen
ta qirstan irgen tur neten bü
hürtügei hemečü hedün-te ben
daqulγača elčin ilegeče ügüleče
ba ileče abai j a. Šilmtur
ortuqai hemehui činu züb. Bi
Činggis qan-u urugud uber-un
monggolčin dur-ber aju. Šilm tur
orobasu ba esebesü ber qaqča
Münghe tnggri medče hemejü. Ede
šilm tur oraqsad tanu metüs maqad
ünen sethilten ariqun arad
Münghe tngrri yin mišiq-a yin
nom jrlg busu üilü bolqan bui
ča. busud irgen
Münghe tnggri yi umartaju busu bolgaju
qudal qulqai üile üildehü ülügü
olan bui. Edüge
mani šilm tur ese orčuqu hemen
magulča ba sethiče aqu či. Qaqča
Münghe tnggri tur jalbaribasu, jügeger
sethičü abasu šilm tur oraqsan
metü ülügü bui. Bičig manu. Bars jil
zunu terigün sar yin tabun
šineded oromi ta bühüi tur bičibei.
----------------------------------
Is there any english or latin translation of the letter?
Maybe Khubilai khan sent it to him from Daidu. Event Khubilai sent a Mongol princess to Arghun according to Marco Polo.
Quote
Only in 1291 Kublai entrusted Marco with his last duty, to escort the Mongol princess Koekecin (Cocacin in Il Milione) to her betrothed, the Ilkhan Arghun. In 1293 or 1294 the Polos reached the Ilkhanate, ruled by Gaykhatu after the death of Arghun, and left Koekecin with the new Ilkhan. Then they moved to Trebizond and from that city sailed to Venice. Koekecin would become the principal wife of the Mongol Il-Khan ruler Ghazan
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Marco_Polo
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Marco_Polo
This post has been edited by Zorigo: 09 January 2008 - 08:03 PM
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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:01 AM
I think there is a German translation of the letter in an exhibition catalogue from 2005 that I have at home.
Re. Mongolian chronicles, if I understand correctly, then Rashid ad-Din claims that his work is more or less copied from Mongolian sources (via hearsay, though).
I think all chronicles in Mongol script that are known today are no older than 17th century (or maybe 16th). Older than that, there are only letters preserved in some archives, stone inscriptions, or text fragments dug up in various places. However, one of the 17th century's Altan Tobci's (there are two known works of that name) is said to contain a big deal of verbatim passages of the Secret History (haven't checked myself, but my sources say so), and it has therefore been conjectured that the auther of that Altan Tobci had access to a copy of the Secret History in Mongol script. And that, if there was a copy of the Secret History in Mongol script, that the original probably was in Mongol script as well.
Re. the seal, the Il-Khans were of course in theory subordinate to the Great Khaan, i.e. Khubilai and his heirs. And I think they once and again observed this rule for some time, even after Khubilai's death.
Re. Mongolian chronicles, if I understand correctly, then Rashid ad-Din claims that his work is more or less copied from Mongolian sources (via hearsay, though).
I think all chronicles in Mongol script that are known today are no older than 17th century (or maybe 16th). Older than that, there are only letters preserved in some archives, stone inscriptions, or text fragments dug up in various places. However, one of the 17th century's Altan Tobci's (there are two known works of that name) is said to contain a big deal of verbatim passages of the Secret History (haven't checked myself, but my sources say so), and it has therefore been conjectured that the auther of that Altan Tobci had access to a copy of the Secret History in Mongol script. And that, if there was a copy of the Secret History in Mongol script, that the original probably was in Mongol script as well.
Re. the seal, the Il-Khans were of course in theory subordinate to the Great Khaan, i.e. Khubilai and his heirs. And I think they once and again observed this rule for some time, even after Khubilai's death.
This post has been edited by yan: 22 January 2008 - 10:08 AM
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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:25 AM
yan, on Jan 23 2008, 01:01 AM, said:
I think there is a German translation of the letter in an exhibition catalogue from 2005 that I have at home.
If you can make it available to me in German, I can translate it into English in short order, and then post the translation.
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Posted 23 January 2008 - 11:37 AM
http://www.atarn.org...an/mongol_1.htm
In 1818, G. I. Spasskii, the Russian scientist specialising in Siberian studies, published in the newspaper "Sibirskii Vestnik", the first information about the stone with oriental inscriptions on it, found in a factory of Nerchinsk (Eastern Siberia). This stone stele is the most ancient monument with the Mongolian uigarjin script known as Chingis Khan's stone script. The inscription is dedicated to Esunge, the son of Chingis Khan's brother Khasar, although it begins with the name of Chingis Khan.
The stone stele was discovered in the basin of the river Kharkhiraa which is the left tributary of Urlengui river flowing into the river Erdene (Trans Baykal).
In 1832 the stele was removed from Nerchinsk to St. Petersburg, and it is still in the Hermitage State Museum. There is no certainty about the exact time of building of this monument, but the scientists have reached a common opinion on the basis of the script text meaning that it was written about in 1226.
Recently (June 1996) the Foundation of Protection of Historic and Cultural heritage, under the Ministry of Culture of Mongolia, funded an operation to copy the stone stele, and it was exhibited in the Mongolian National Museum or History.
The stone stele has a great historic and linguistic value as shown by the interest of the many scientists who have carried out various researches and studies of the scripts
Quote
Činggis qan-i
sartaγul irgen daquliju baγuju xamuγ monγol ulus un arad i Buqa Sočiqai xurigsan tur Esunke Qonγodorun γurban jaγud γucin tabun alda tur ontudlu γa.
sartaγul irgen daquliju baγuju xamuγ monγol ulus un arad i Buqa Sočiqai xurigsan tur Esunke Qonγodorun γurban jaγud γucin tabun alda tur ontudlu γa.
#11
- General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)
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Posted 24 January 2008 - 12:35 PM
William O'Chee, on Jan 23 2008, 11:25 AM, said:
If you can make it available to me in German, I can translate it into English in short order, and then post the translation.
It seems I was wrong - the catalogue has a lot of cool stuff, including good scans of letters from IlKhans Ghazan and Oljeitu (sp? + the o und u should be umlauts) to the pope and Philip le Bel, respectively, but no letter from Arghun and no translations. There is, however, a french translation by Mostaert and Cleaves in a paper called "Trois documents mongols des Archives secretes vaticanes". If I find the time, I can post the french (and also the mongolian) text on the weekend. The paper is available online with subscription, but for technical reasons, I can't c&p the thing.
#12
- General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)
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- Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 16-July 04
Posted 26 January 2008 - 12:44 PM
Mongolian text ('gamma' replaced by g, č by ch, š by sh):
[da]l[a]i-yin. busud ali be irgen
öber-ün nom bichig-iyer jal[bariqun]
aran qudalchigan jalbarin bui.
Misiq-a-in nom tengri-dür tayigchi
ünen bei. Edüge
Il-qan Misiq-a-in nom-dur
oratugai kemejü ilejügü chi.
Sayin echige manu Misiq-a-in
nom ünen-ü tula. sayin
emege-yi ba silamtai kü büleyi keme[n]
ta kiristan irgen-dür. ada buu
kürtügei kemejü kedün-te ba
dugulgan ilchin ileged [ü]g[ü]lechi
kü ilen aba j-e. Silamdur
oratugai kemeküi chinu job. Ba
Chinggis-qan-u. urugud öber-ün
Monggoljin durabar aju silam-dur
orabasu ba esebesü ber. gagcha
mongke tngri mede kemejü ad.
Silam-dur oragsad tanu metüs mag-a
ünen sedkilten arigun aran.
mongke tngri-yin Misiq-a-yin
nom. jrlg busi ülü bolgan bui
j-e. Busud irgen
mongke tngri-yi umartaju busi bolgaju
qudal qulgai uiles uiledkün ülügü.
[o]lan bui. Edüge
namayi silam-dur es-e orajugu kemen
maguilan ba sedkin aqu chi. Gagcha
mongke tngri-dür jalbaribasu jugiger
sedkijü abasu. silam-dur oragsan
metü ülügü bei. Bichigmanu bars jil
junu terigün sara-yin tabun
sinede Urumi-da büküi-dür bichibei.
French translation:
Tu as envoyé [un message] disant: ". . . Les autres peuples de
l'univers, quels qu'ils soient, [étant des] gens qui prient selon
leurs propres religion et écritures, prient mensongèrement. La
religion du Misiqa adore le Ciel et est vraie. Que maintenant
l'ilkhan entre dans la religion du Misiqa ". Disant que notre
bon père-parce que la religion du Misiqa est la vraie-ainsi que
[notre] bonne aïeule avaient [eux] aussi le silam (= étaient chrétiens),
vous avez aussi à plusieurs reprises, nous faisant des communications,
envoyé des ambassadeurs et dépêché des porteurs
de messages verbaux disant: "Que du mal ne soit pas fait aux
peuples chrétiens! "
Ton dire: " Que [l'ilkhan] entre dans le silam (=se fasse chrétien)
" est juste. Nous autres, descendants de Cinggis-qan, nous
disons: " [Quant à] nos propres Mongols (= nos sujets mongols),
soit que de plein gré ils entrent dans le silam, soit que [de plein
gré] ils ne le fassent pas, que seul le Ciel éternel en connaisse! "
Les gens entrés dans le silam et qui, comme vous, ont un coeur
vraiment sincère et sont purs, ne contreviennent pas à la religion
et aux ordres du Ciel éternel et du Misiqa. Quant aux autres
peuples, ceux qui, oubliant le Ciel éternel et lui dé***éissant, font
des oeuvres de mensonge et de vol, ne sont-ils pas nombreux?
Maintenant, disant que je ne suis pas entré dans le silam, tu
t'offenses et te livres à des pensées [de mécontentement]. [Mais]
si uniquement on prie le Ciel éternel et si l'on pense comme il
sied de le faire, n'est-ce pas comme si l'on était entré dans le
silam?
Notre lettre, nous [l']avons écrite l'année du tigre, le cinq de
la nouvelle lune du premier mois de l'été (14 mai 1290), quand
nous étions à Urumi.
Source for both: Antoine Mostaert; Francis Woodman Cleaves: Trois documents mongols des Archives secrètes vaticanes, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 15, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1952), pp. 419-506.
[da]l[a]i-yin. busud ali be irgen
öber-ün nom bichig-iyer jal[bariqun]
aran qudalchigan jalbarin bui.
Misiq-a-in nom tengri-dür tayigchi
ünen bei. Edüge
Il-qan Misiq-a-in nom-dur
oratugai kemejü ilejügü chi.
Sayin echige manu Misiq-a-in
nom ünen-ü tula. sayin
emege-yi ba silamtai kü büleyi keme[n]
ta kiristan irgen-dür. ada buu
kürtügei kemejü kedün-te ba
dugulgan ilchin ileged [ü]g[ü]lechi
kü ilen aba j-e. Silamdur
oratugai kemeküi chinu job. Ba
Chinggis-qan-u. urugud öber-ün
Monggoljin durabar aju silam-dur
orabasu ba esebesü ber. gagcha
mongke tngri mede kemejü ad.
Silam-dur oragsad tanu metüs mag-a
ünen sedkilten arigun aran.
mongke tngri-yin Misiq-a-yin
nom. jrlg busi ülü bolgan bui
j-e. Busud irgen
mongke tngri-yi umartaju busi bolgaju
qudal qulgai uiles uiledkün ülügü.
[o]lan bui. Edüge
namayi silam-dur es-e orajugu kemen
maguilan ba sedkin aqu chi. Gagcha
mongke tngri-dür jalbaribasu jugiger
sedkijü abasu. silam-dur oragsan
metü ülügü bei. Bichigmanu bars jil
junu terigün sara-yin tabun
sinede Urumi-da büküi-dür bichibei.
French translation:
Tu as envoyé [un message] disant: ". . . Les autres peuples de
l'univers, quels qu'ils soient, [étant des] gens qui prient selon
leurs propres religion et écritures, prient mensongèrement. La
religion du Misiqa adore le Ciel et est vraie. Que maintenant
l'ilkhan entre dans la religion du Misiqa ". Disant que notre
bon père-parce que la religion du Misiqa est la vraie-ainsi que
[notre] bonne aïeule avaient [eux] aussi le silam (= étaient chrétiens),
vous avez aussi à plusieurs reprises, nous faisant des communications,
envoyé des ambassadeurs et dépêché des porteurs
de messages verbaux disant: "Que du mal ne soit pas fait aux
peuples chrétiens! "
Ton dire: " Que [l'ilkhan] entre dans le silam (=se fasse chrétien)
" est juste. Nous autres, descendants de Cinggis-qan, nous
disons: " [Quant à] nos propres Mongols (= nos sujets mongols),
soit que de plein gré ils entrent dans le silam, soit que [de plein
gré] ils ne le fassent pas, que seul le Ciel éternel en connaisse! "
Les gens entrés dans le silam et qui, comme vous, ont un coeur
vraiment sincère et sont purs, ne contreviennent pas à la religion
et aux ordres du Ciel éternel et du Misiqa. Quant aux autres
peuples, ceux qui, oubliant le Ciel éternel et lui dé***éissant, font
des oeuvres de mensonge et de vol, ne sont-ils pas nombreux?
Maintenant, disant que je ne suis pas entré dans le silam, tu
t'offenses et te livres à des pensées [de mécontentement]. [Mais]
si uniquement on prie le Ciel éternel et si l'on pense comme il
sied de le faire, n'est-ce pas comme si l'on était entré dans le
silam?
Notre lettre, nous [l']avons écrite l'année du tigre, le cinq de
la nouvelle lune du premier mois de l'été (14 mai 1290), quand
nous étions à Urumi.
Source for both: Antoine Mostaert; Francis Woodman Cleaves: Trois documents mongols des Archives secrètes vaticanes, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 15, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1952), pp. 419-506.
#13
- General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)
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- Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 16-July 04
Posted 07 February 2008 - 02:42 PM
yan, on Jan 26 2008, 06:44 PM, said:
Mongolian text ('gamma' replaced by g, č by ch, š by sh):
[da]l[a]i-yin. busud ali be irgen
öber-ün nom bichig-iyer jal[bariqun]
aran qudalchigan jalbarin bui.
Misiq-a-in nom tengri-dür tayigchi
ünen bei. Edüge
Il-qan Misiq-a-in nom-dur
oratugai kemejü ilejügü chi.
Sayin echige manu Misiq-a-in
nom ünen-ü tula. sayin
emege-yi ba silamtai kü büleyi keme[n]
ta kiristan irgen-dür. ada buu
kürtügei kemejü kedün-te ba
dugulgan ilchin ileged [ü]g[ü]lechi
kü ilen aba j-e. Silamdur
oratugai kemeküi chinu job. Ba
Chinggis-qan-u. urugud öber-ün
Monggoljin durabar aju silam-dur
orabasu ba esebesü ber. gagcha
mongke tngri mede kemejü ad.
Silam-dur oragsad tanu metüs mag-a
ünen sedkilten arigun aran.
mongke tngri-yin Misiq-a-yin
nom. jrlg busi ülü bolgan bui
j-e. Busud irgen
mongke tngri-yi umartaju busi bolgaju
qudal qulgai uiles uiledkün ülügü.
[o]lan bui. Edüge
namayi silam-dur es-e orajugu kemen
maguilan ba sedkin aqu chi. Gagcha
mongke tngri-dür jalbaribasu jugiger
sedkijü abasu. silam-dur oragsan
metü ülügü bei. Bichigmanu bars jil
junu terigün sara-yin tabun
sinede Urumi-da büküi-dür bichibei.
French translation:
Tu as envoyé [un message] disant: ". . . Les autres peuples de
l'univers, quels qu'ils soient, [étant des] gens qui prient selon
leurs propres religion et écritures, prient mensongèrement. La
religion du Misiqa adore le Ciel et est vraie. Que maintenant
l'ilkhan entre dans la religion du Misiqa ". Disant que notre
bon père-parce que la religion du Misiqa est la vraie-ainsi que
[notre] bonne aïeule avaient [eux] aussi le silam (= étaient chrétiens),
vous avez aussi à plusieurs reprises, nous faisant des communications,
envoyé des ambassadeurs et dépêché des porteurs
de messages verbaux disant: "Que du mal ne soit pas fait aux
peuples chrétiens! "
Ton dire: " Que [l'ilkhan] entre dans le silam (=se fasse chrétien)
" est juste. Nous autres, descendants de Cinggis-qan, nous
disons: " [Quant à] nos propres Mongols (= nos sujets mongols),
soit que de plein gré ils entrent dans le silam, soit que [de plein
gré] ils ne le fassent pas, que seul le Ciel éternel en connaisse! "
Les gens entrés dans le silam et qui, comme vous, ont un coeur
vraiment sincère et sont purs, ne contreviennent pas à la religion
et aux ordres du Ciel éternel et du Misiqa. Quant aux autres
peuples, ceux qui, oubliant le Ciel éternel et lui dé***éissant, font
des oeuvres de mensonge et de vol, ne sont-ils pas nombreux?
Maintenant, disant que je ne suis pas entré dans le silam, tu
t'offenses et te livres à des pensées [de mécontentement]. [Mais]
si uniquement on prie le Ciel éternel et si l'on pense comme il
sied de le faire, n'est-ce pas comme si l'on était entré dans le
silam?
Notre lettre, nous [l']avons écrite l'année du tigre, le cinq de
la nouvelle lune du premier mois de l'été (14 mai 1290), quand
nous étions à Urumi.
Source for both: Antoine Mostaert; Francis Woodman Cleaves: Trois documents mongols des Archives secrètes vaticanes, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 15, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1952), pp. 419-506.
[da]l[a]i-yin. busud ali be irgen
öber-ün nom bichig-iyer jal[bariqun]
aran qudalchigan jalbarin bui.
Misiq-a-in nom tengri-dür tayigchi
ünen bei. Edüge
Il-qan Misiq-a-in nom-dur
oratugai kemejü ilejügü chi.
Sayin echige manu Misiq-a-in
nom ünen-ü tula. sayin
emege-yi ba silamtai kü büleyi keme[n]
ta kiristan irgen-dür. ada buu
kürtügei kemejü kedün-te ba
dugulgan ilchin ileged [ü]g[ü]lechi
kü ilen aba j-e. Silamdur
oratugai kemeküi chinu job. Ba
Chinggis-qan-u. urugud öber-ün
Monggoljin durabar aju silam-dur
orabasu ba esebesü ber. gagcha
mongke tngri mede kemejü ad.
Silam-dur oragsad tanu metüs mag-a
ünen sedkilten arigun aran.
mongke tngri-yin Misiq-a-yin
nom. jrlg busi ülü bolgan bui
j-e. Busud irgen
mongke tngri-yi umartaju busi bolgaju
qudal qulgai uiles uiledkün ülügü.
[o]lan bui. Edüge
namayi silam-dur es-e orajugu kemen
maguilan ba sedkin aqu chi. Gagcha
mongke tngri-dür jalbaribasu jugiger
sedkijü abasu. silam-dur oragsan
metü ülügü bei. Bichigmanu bars jil
junu terigün sara-yin tabun
sinede Urumi-da büküi-dür bichibei.
French translation:
Tu as envoyé [un message] disant: ". . . Les autres peuples de
l'univers, quels qu'ils soient, [étant des] gens qui prient selon
leurs propres religion et écritures, prient mensongèrement. La
religion du Misiqa adore le Ciel et est vraie. Que maintenant
l'ilkhan entre dans la religion du Misiqa ". Disant que notre
bon père-parce que la religion du Misiqa est la vraie-ainsi que
[notre] bonne aïeule avaient [eux] aussi le silam (= étaient chrétiens),
vous avez aussi à plusieurs reprises, nous faisant des communications,
envoyé des ambassadeurs et dépêché des porteurs
de messages verbaux disant: "Que du mal ne soit pas fait aux
peuples chrétiens! "
Ton dire: " Que [l'ilkhan] entre dans le silam (=se fasse chrétien)
" est juste. Nous autres, descendants de Cinggis-qan, nous
disons: " [Quant à] nos propres Mongols (= nos sujets mongols),
soit que de plein gré ils entrent dans le silam, soit que [de plein
gré] ils ne le fassent pas, que seul le Ciel éternel en connaisse! "
Les gens entrés dans le silam et qui, comme vous, ont un coeur
vraiment sincère et sont purs, ne contreviennent pas à la religion
et aux ordres du Ciel éternel et du Misiqa. Quant aux autres
peuples, ceux qui, oubliant le Ciel éternel et lui dé***éissant, font
des oeuvres de mensonge et de vol, ne sont-ils pas nombreux?
Maintenant, disant que je ne suis pas entré dans le silam, tu
t'offenses et te livres à des pensées [de mécontentement]. [Mais]
si uniquement on prie le Ciel éternel et si l'on pense comme il
sied de le faire, n'est-ce pas comme si l'on était entré dans le
silam?
Notre lettre, nous [l']avons écrite l'année du tigre, le cinq de
la nouvelle lune du premier mois de l'été (14 mai 1290), quand
nous étions à Urumi.
Source for both: Antoine Mostaert; Francis Woodman Cleaves: Trois documents mongols des Archives secrètes vaticanes, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 15, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1952), pp. 419-506.
Here is an attempt at an English translation from the French one. In school, I never was good at french, plus this is just a retranslation, so don't expect it to be very correct. In fact, if your French or Mongolian is better than mine, please correct me.
You have sent [a message] saying: "The other peoples of the universe, whoever they are, [being] people who pray according to their own religion and scriptures, are praying falsely. The religion of Misiqa (the messias, according to footnote) adores the sky and is true. If only the Ilkhan would now adopt the religion of Misiqa." Saying that our good father - because the religion of Misiqa is the right one - as well as our good grandmother had also the silam (were Christians), you have also again and again made communications, sent ambassadors and bearers of urgent oral messages who said "If only nothing bad is comitted against the Christians!"
Your saying: "If only [the Ilkhan] adopted the silam (becomes christian)" is legitimate. We others, descendants of Chinggis Khan, we say: "[Regarding] whether among our proper Mongols (our Mongol subjects) are some who on their own will adopt the silam, or are some who on their own will do not believe in it, only the etrenal Sky shall know it!" The people who have adopted the silam and who, like you, have a truly honest heart and are sincere, do not act against the religion and orders of the eternal Sky and of Misiqa. Regarding the other peoples, those who, forgetting the eternal Sky and disobeying it, are lying and stealing, are there not many of them? Now, saying that we have not adopted the silam, you insult yourself and your books with thoughts [of dissatisfaction.] [But] if one only prays the eternal Sky and thinks as one sees fit, is this not as if one had adopted the silam?
We have written our letter in the year of the tiger, the fifth of the new moon of the first summer month (May 14th, 1290), when we were in Urumi (Urmia, according to footnote)
#14
- Military Commissioner (Jiedushi 节度使)
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- Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
- Posts: 96
- Joined: 08-April 06
Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:16 AM
Dissertation regarding Crimean history and toponims (in Russian):
http://crimeatau.org...s/bush_teok.pdf
On page 20 it is stated that Russian Tsarina Catherine II, who ruled Russia in late 18 century, gave secret order to forge ahead the so-called Tmutarakan Stone thus to have a "proof" that there once was a Russian principality on the Taman peninsula, to justify the Russian Empire occupation of the Taman and Northern Caucasus. (Correct name should be pronounced as Taman-Tarkhan).
So, the so-called "Chinghis Stone" also can be another one Russian counterfeit?
http://crimeatau.org...s/bush_teok.pdf
On page 20 it is stated that Russian Tsarina Catherine II, who ruled Russia in late 18 century, gave secret order to forge ahead the so-called Tmutarakan Stone thus to have a "proof" that there once was a Russian principality on the Taman peninsula, to justify the Russian Empire occupation of the Taman and Northern Caucasus. (Correct name should be pronounced as Taman-Tarkhan).
So, the so-called "Chinghis Stone" also can be another one Russian counterfeit?
This post has been edited by Akskl: 17 February 2009 - 12:25 AM
#15
- Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)
-
- Group: Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
- Posts: 459
- Joined: 28-April 06
Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.....Mongolia_(1913)
Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397]
TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND ALLIANCE
Concluded Between the Government
of Mongolia and Tibet at Urga
29 December 1912 (11 January 1913)
(translation of the Tibetan text)
http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/trea...treaties14.html
Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397]
TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND ALLIANCE
Concluded Between the Government
of Mongolia and Tibet at Urga
29 December 1912 (11 January 1913)
(translation of the Tibetan text)
http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/trea...treaties14.html
