[snowybeagle]

Those who had watched Bruce Lee's Fist of Fury 精武門 might recall the scene where he broke a signboard given to the Chinese by foreigners, which had the words 东亚病夫 - literally Sick Man of East Asia.

As far as I found find, according to http://baike.baidu.com/view/582724.htm, the Chinese term was a slight misquotation of a translation made by Liang Qichao (梁启超) of an article published on 17 October 1896 in 《字西林报》, a British-owned English-language newspaper published in Shanghai.

Liang's translation went “夫中国——东方病夫也，其麻木不仁久矣。”.

I've tried to search but could not find the article in the original form and language. I can't even locate the English name of the newspaper.

But from English-language historical books I've read, the phrase should be Sick Man of Asia. The phrase itself seems to have originated as a corollary to an earlier term Sick Man of Europe, referring to the Ottoman Empire.

In both cases, it referred not to physical health of the people but their spirit, their leadership and their dismal future prospects.

Regardless of the misquote, the phrase 东亚病夫 was used to jeer Chinese. One instance quoted was the poor performance of ROC's team to 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin. It was one of the largest country to participate, and won no medals. According to many Chinese websites, the team was mocked en route their return journey via Singapore, by a local newspaper lampooning their team with a caption 东亚病夫.

The famous Chinese writer of late-Qing/Nationalist era, Zeng Pu (曾朴), used the pseudonym 东亚病夫 as a self-mockery.

I would request if anyone has the original source of the phrase, in its original language, to share it here.

[Peng]

I'd like to add, in US version of Jet Li's Fist of Legend (精武英雄), the same sign was mistranslated into "Jingwu School is Closed" while it's translated into "Sick Man of the East" in English subtitle of Hong Kong version.

[fcharton]

Hi Snowy,

The original expression, apparently in French, was "l'homme malade de l'Europe" (the sick man of europe), and was apparently coined by prince Alexander Gorchakov, a russian diplomat, to describe the situation in Europe in the 1870s. Back then, many european countries were expanding, Germany and Italy were unifying, Autria Hungary was being created, France and Britain were developping their colonial empires, and Russia was having ambitions on it south western border. The Ottoman Empire appeared as the weak power, which would be taken advantage of.

I think the image "caught", because Gorchakov's prediction proved to be quite correct. All the second half of the 19th century, and until WWI, saw European powers grabbing bits and pieces of the former Ottoman possessions. As it was a good image, it soon became a stereotype, and was reused, until now, by journalists, for all kinds of places.

For what I know, Sick man of Asia is a less common expression, actually, if you do an internet search for the expression, in english or in other languages, you'll discover it applied to China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, ...

Francois

This post has been edited by fcharton: 17 January 2008 - 01:14 PM

[snowybeagle]

fcharton, on Jan 18 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

For what I know, Sick man of Asia is a less common expression, actually, if you do an internet search for the expression, in english or in other languages, you'll discover it applied to China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, ...

But the expression in Mandarin apparently left deep psychological scars in the psyche of the Chinese people.

Given the (slight) disparity between the English phrase and the Mandarin phrase, I wondered if there was more to this than a misquoting of Liang Qichao, or even a mistranslation even, hence my interest to find its origins.

While not unapt to Qing era's China, even Nationalist era too, the fates of the original Sick Man of Europe and Sick Man of Asia differed sharply - the former were fragmented into distinct states today, the latter more or less kept most of the original boundaries.

[fcharton]

snowybeagle, on Jan 18 2008, 06:11 AM, said:

But the expression in Mandarin apparently left deep psychological scars in the psyche of the Chinese people.

I don't think the expression left scars, my impression is that the expression was used, maybe coined, by Chinese to reflect on their psychological scars. In other words, I suspect this expression has been more used by Chinese do describe the humiliation they were subjected to, than by Europeans as a correct description of China in the 19h century, and prediction of its fate (which was the case with Gorchakov's word).

Note though, that Turkish nationalist rethoric made good use, too, of the expression "sick man of Europe", to justify their restoration of the nation to its past glory.

I would agree with you on Liang Qichao: basically, he coined a chinese expression from a french one.

Francois

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

One thing we should remember that at that time China was very disfunctional, opium usage is wide spread, the government is very fragmented, warlords controlling their own vested interest, poverty level was very high, social standard is really bad. Comparing China to Japan and to western super powers, no doubt China is very sick.

Although other neighboring nations were worse than China but because China in general was consider to be a country that is suppossed to be up to the standard of Japan and other Western nations that is why it was branded "sick man of asia or east".

This phrase also serve to inspire China to rise up and modernize.

[大泽升龙]

This was simply because British fed Chinese with Indian drugs after they won the Opium War.

[snowybeagle]

大泽升龙, on Jan 21 2008, 02:00 AM, said:

This was simply because British fed Chinese with Indian drugs after they won the Opium War.

Now, that'd not be fair, just was it won't be fair to accuse Qing of otherwise bankrupting Britain by feeding them tea - consumption was voluntary. Using guns to against the official embargo though, was another matter.

About opium consumption contributing to the Sick Man image, opium consumption also existed in the West, and just about every part of the world where there was international trade.

[T98G]

I put the blame on the conservatives for their refusal to implement proper reforms for China, if reforms had been implemented properly there may not even be a Sick Man of the East.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

snowybeagle, on Jan 20 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

Now, that'd not be fair, just was it won't be fair to accuse Qing of otherwise bankrupting Britain by feeding them tea - consumption was voluntary. Using guns to against the official embargo though, was another matter.

About opium consumption contributing to the Sick Man image, opium consumption also existed in the West, and just about every part of the world where there was international trade.

The difference is that opium consumption was really bad it was wide open, legal, being supply and protected by foreign powers. In the west it was banned consumption was done underground, in fact opium is also not allowed inside foreign concession control areas only Chinese are allowed to use them legally and openly but foreigners were discourage from using it.

This post has been edited by Wan Ren aka Danny: 21 January 2008 - 12:22 AM

[snowybeagle]

Wan Ren aka Danny, on Jan 21 2008, 01:17 PM, said:

The difference is that opium consumption was really bad it was wide open, legal, being supply and protected by foreign powers. In the west it was banned consumption was done underground, in fact opium is also not allowed inside foreign concession control areas only Chinese are allowed to use them legally and openly but foreigners were discourage from using it.

I have no info on the opium dens in Foreign Concessions, but in the West like USA, UK and France, public opium consumption wasn't banned until much later. The earliest mention I could find is San Francisco's Opium Den Ordinance in 1875, long after the First Opium War.

[snowybeagle]

fcharton, on Jan 18 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

I don't think the expression left scars, my impression is that the expression was used, maybe coined, by Chinese to reflect on their psychological scars. In other words, I suspect this expression has been more used by Chinese do describe the humiliation they were subjected to, than by Europeans as a correct description of China in the 19h century, and prediction of its fate (which was the case with Gorchakov's word).

I suppose another way to put it would be ... The Truth Hurts ...

Ironic really, since many of the Qing people depended not only on manual labour to make a living, but also have a long tradition of martial arts practice, for physical fitness if nothing else.

[T98G]

Well as long as this history is studied upon, this is a small chance of it repeating all over again later on.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

snowybeagle, on Jan 20 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

I suppose another way to put it would be ... The Truth Hurts ...

Ironic really, since many of the Qing people depended not only on manual labour to make a living, but also have a long tradition of martial arts practice, for physical fitness if nothing else.

What hurts & humiliating was that China was powerless against foreign agrression because China under the Qing refused to modernized.

[snowybeagle]

Wan Ren aka Danny, on Jan 22 2008, 03:00 AM, said:

What hurts & humiliating was that China was powerless against foreign agrression because China under the Qing refused to modernized.

The statement that Qing refused to modernise is somewhat misleading. The problem is not refusing to modernise, but to correctly identify all the necessary areas to modernise.

After the Opium War defeat, Qing did embark on a modernisation program to adopt modern technology and military.
Even the most conservative diehards could not deny that the Qing's military was too backward.

The Self-Strengthening Movement (洋务运动) from AD 1861 to 1894 did usher in industrial modernisation, learning and adopting Western technologies in the military, maritime services and others. Qing's output of industrial steel was one of the highest in the world, and its quality comparable to the best.

When compared to the post-Meiji Restoration reforms in Japan, back then, it was not easy to tell how different Qing's reforms and Japan's reforms were, and which would get ahead later.

Politically, neither countries reforms brought democracy to the masses. In fact, democracy to the masses was not all that widespread in the West at the time either. The political circles were still dominated by aristocrats.

But while the Qing also had bureaucrats influencing politics, in the West, it was the industrialists and entrepreneurs whose influence were growing and taking over from the aristocrats, and eventually led them ahead.

If one was to compare, Qing could be paralleled to Russia under Romanov monarchy in Europe - trying to cope with new challenges with an old power structure.