[esse]

Yun, on May 7 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

Why did Zhuge Dan get denigrated in that way? He was a prominent figure in the xuanxue (Neo-Daoist) circle in Luoyang during the regency of Cao Shuang, along with others like Xiaohou Xuan, He Yan, and Wang Bi. After Sima Yi seized power, he was able to survive (both politically and physically) and eventually become commander of troops on the vital Huainan frontier with Wu. But he then rebelled and sought the aid of the Wu to oppose Sima Zhao, and was finally defeated and killed.

Funny fella. He scorned and put down Guankou Jian's rebellion, only to repeat Jian's act. His surviving descendants though got back on the Sima's good side. Wasn't his sister married to one of the Sima? (Zhou, younger brother of Zhao, grandfather if the founder of Eastern Jin, IIRC)

The Zhuges of Yangdu were prominent. Sadly no descendent ever again reached the height Jin, Liang, and Dan had previously set. Zhuge Jin and Liang's surviving descendants were moved to Hedong commandery, was there anything about their fortune buried in history somewhere?

This post has been edited by metronomad: 11 November 2005 - 02:47 PM

[Liu Bei]

I would say Cao Zhi, because he is very smart!

[Cao Song]

i said Cao Zhi cause i think he would have made an great Prime Minister, he could handle any political matter just as good as Cao Pi (IMO Cao Zhi may even do stuff better). Cao Pi led unsuccessful campaigns agaisnt Wu and Shu, i dont think Cao Zhi would do that i think that if he were to go on the offensive his campaigns would be more thought out (i heard from a different forum that Cao Pi rushed his attacks on Wu, not sure if its true or not)

[Yun]

Quote

His surviving descendants though got back on the Sima's good side. Wasn't his sister married to one of the Sima? (Zhou, younger brother of Zhao, grandfather if the founder of Eastern Jin, IIRC)

I just saw the accounts of this in the Shishuo Xinyu and Jin Shu. Zhuge Dan's daughter was already married to Sima Zhou before his rebellion. Zhuge Dan was thus also a father-in-law to one of Sima Zhao's brothers. Sima Zhou was the grandfather of Sima Rui, the first Eastern Jin emperor.

After the defeat and death of Zhuge Dan in 258, his youngest son Zhuge Jing fled south to Wu and became a general there. Following the conquest of Wu by Western Jin in 280, he returned to the Zhuge family home in Langya. Zhuge Jing had been friends with Sima Yan in their boyhood, but now because Sima Yan's father (Sima Zhao) was the killer of Zhuge Jing's father, Zhuge Jing refused all contact with him, and always sat with his back facing the direction of the Luo River to show his non-submission to the imperial court in Luoyang.

Of course, Sima Yan was now emperor and tried to arrange a meeting through Zhuge Jing's older sister (i.e. Sima Zhou's wife and thus Sima Yan's aunt). Once when Zhuge Jing was visiting his sister, Sima Yan went over too. Zhuge Jing then hid from Sima Yan in the toilet. Eventually he had no choice but to come out. Sima Zhao said to him, "I never expected we would meet again today!"

Zhuge Jing replied, "It's only because I am unable to 'swallow charcoal and lacquer his body' that today I look upon your sage face." And with that the tears coursed down in a flood. The emperor was filled with shame and left the room. Zhuge Jing never held an official position under the Western Jin until the day he died.

[Zhuge Jing was alluding to the story of Yu Rang, the famous Warring States assassin who went to great lengths to avenge the defeat and killing of his lord Xun Yao (the Earl of Zhi) by Xun's rival Zhao Xiangzi. He fled into the hills, changed his name, and after one failed assassination attempt decided to disguise himself more drastically. He lacquered his body to cause his skin to break out in ulcers, swallowed charcoal to disguise his voice, and then lay in wait for Zhao Xiangzi under a bridge. But he was recognized and caught, and committed suicide.]

Zhuge Jing's son Zhuge Hui fled south after the fall of the Western Jin, and rose to high positions in the Eastern Jin court. He died in 345. His elder brother Zhuge Yi also served the Eastern Jin with distinction and rose to the post of Minister of Rites. Zhuge Jing's son Zhuge Gan rose to the position of Senior Consultant.

[Ma Su]

Unless Cao Ang was very stupid then I think he would be the best choice on the grounds that he is the eldest. The last thing the Cao's need is infighting and as long as the eldst isn't incomptent, picking him will cut out most arguments.

Cao Pi might contest it, that is the only problem I can see

[Zhou Yu]

I think it should always go to the most experienced and trained... Cao Pi was the best choice in my opinion but Cao Zhi would run a close second... i mean ofcourse you have to be smart to be a leader but you also need the qualities of a leader... Cao Pi had those qualites... hmmm... they would have made a great team in running Wei

[King Piankhy]

Zhou Yu, on May 3 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

I think it should always go to the most experienced and trained... Cao Pi was the best choice in my opinion but Cao Zhi would run a close second... i mean ofcourse you have to be smart to be a leader but you also need the qualities of a leader... Cao Pi had those qualites... hmmm... they would have made a great team in running Wei

I'd say Cao Zhang was more experienced in war then Cao Pi. And Cao Zhi was more intelligent then Cao Pi. But as you see they both had major flaws. Cao Zhang wasn't good in politcs to my knowledge. Cao Zhi was a drunk which hindered his abiliteis sometimes. So Cao Pi is sort of like a mix of the two. But I think there is one that surpasses all of them. Cao Chong. I know he was only 13 but his biography was pretty impressive. I have no doubt that he would have grown to be talented ruler. He also had something Cao lacked. Kindness and sincerity. Plus add that he could out think adults when he was only 7. Makings of a hero.

This post has been edited by King Piankhy: 03 May 2006 - 03:48 PM

[Genghis_Khan]

King Piankhy, on May 4 2006, 04:47 AM, said:

I'd say Cao Zhang was more experienced in war then Cao Pi. And Cao Zhi was more intelligent then Cao Pi. But as you see they both had major flaws. Cao Zhang wasn't good in politcs to my knowledge. Cao Zhi was a drunk which hindered his abiliteis sometimes. So Cao Pi is sort of like a mix of the two. But I think there is one that surpasses all of them. Cao Chong. I know he was only 13 but his biography was pretty impressive. I have no doubt that he would have grown to be talented ruler. He also had something Cao lacked. Kindness and sincerity. Plus add that he could out think adults when he was only 7. Makings of a hero.

What happen to Cao Chong in the end ? Did he become a Wei General ?

[snowybeagle]

Genghis_Khan, on May 4 2006, 11:56 AM, said:

What happen to Cao Chong in the end ? Did he become a Wei General ?

Died of illness as a boy.
It was said that Cao Cao regretted executing Hua Tuo who might have been able to save his son ...

[Genghis_Khan]

snowybeagle, on May 4 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

Died of illness as a boy.
It was said that Cao Cao regretted executing Hua Tuo who might have been able to save his son ...

That's mean he die before Cao Cao ?
No wonder I never heard of him..
where did u get his info ? Any links ?
TQ...

[snowybeagle]

Genghis_Khan, on May 4 2006, 01:42 PM, said:

That's mean he die before Cao Cao ?
No wonder I never heard of him..
where did u get his info ? Any links ?
TQ...

If you can read Mandarin, try 《三国志·魏书·武文世王公传第二十》, if not, wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Chong or http://zh.wikipedia....%9B%B9%E5%86%B2

[Ma Su]

kongming.net bio on wonder Cao

[Zhou Yu]

King Piankhy, on May 3 2006, 04:47 PM, said:

I'd say Cao Zhang was more experienced in war then Cao Pi. And Cao Zhi was more intelligent then Cao Pi. But as you see they both had major flaws. Cao Zhang wasn't good in politcs to my knowledge. Cao Zhi was a drunk which hindered his abiliteis sometimes. So Cao Pi is sort of like a mix of the two. But I think there is one that surpasses all of them. Cao Chong. I know he was only 13 but his biography was pretty impressive. I have no doubt that he would have grown to be talented ruler. He also had something Cao lacked. Kindness and sincerity. Plus add that he could out think adults when he was only 7. Makings of a hero.

hm.. thats pretty amazing... but still... Cao Pi had the great abilites to raise moral and other great leader qualities... Cao Zhang (as you said) was not good in politics but that is the main part of being a leader... Cao Chong would have made a great leader but when you think about it, Liu Bei was kind and look where that got him... My opinon still stands that Pi makes the best leader.

This post has been edited by Zhou Yu: 05 May 2006 - 09:40 AM

[Ma Su]

Zhou Yu, on May 5 2006, 03:40 PM, said:

Liu Bei was kind and look where that got him... My opinon still stands that Pi makes the best leader.

A kingdom? A small one but a kingdom none the less. Liu Bei matched his kindness with great ability and charaisma and Cao Chong seems to be a genuis so I'm not too sure what your point is?

[Ashura]

Let's clarify the conflict between Cao Pi and Cao Zhi.

Cao Zhi in his poetry did show that he had political and military ambition. We have no way to judge Cao Zhi's military ability because there is no evidence. Despite of a lack of decorated military display, he still came out to be the most prominent challenge to Cao Pi's position, and knowing how pragmatic Cao Cao was, we can safely say that Cao Zhi would not be an inferior choice to Cao Pi. Also remember that Cao Zhi had his own power structure and lots of talented friends. This group of people was like a think tank of todays and it was influencial in politics at that time. Notably Yang Xiu was siding with Cao Zhi. Cao Pi had his own think tank and these 2 groups clashed against each other when Cao Cao was getting old and in need of an heir.

For many reasons Cao Cao prefered Cao Pi over Cao Zhi. One of them was the precedent set by the Yuans. Beside Cao Pi was older and according to the order at that time, he should be the heir. Making Cao Zhi the heir would be a bad choice as Cao Pi, since he was older and had more legitimacy, was way more influencial to the Cao retainers. If Cao Zhi were succeeding the "throne", he would have to kill a lot of people to secure his position, which would in turn made the Wei Empire weaker.

Cao Zhi's hippiness can be said as a result of the political awareness at the time. Since he had no way to be the heir, he needed to reduce the tension and to save his skin by presenting himself as harmless. Cao Cao killed Yang Xiu for this reason to reduce the threat of Cao Zhi's group to Cao Pi. After Yang Xiu's death, Cao Zhi's group dispersed. Furthermore, one can interpret that the drinking problem of Cao Zhi's was a direct order from Cao Cao.