[snowybeagle]

Wang Meng (王猛), AD 325-375, was best remembered as an ethnic Han Prime Minister in the Court of Former Qin (前秦).

He was a native of Bei Hai (北海), present day SE Shou Guang county in the province of ShanDong （今山東省壽光縣東南). Wang Meng was said to be a well-built handsome man, with a strict demeanour and an upright aura. He was described to be a man of broad horizon while paying little care to trivial matters, refusing to associate with those he considered as mediocre.

Wang Meng lived during the earlier years of the Age of Fragmentation.

In AD 354, the Eastern Jin (東晉) sent an expedition northwards under the command of Huan Wen (桓温). Huan Wen defeated the forces of Former Qin under Fu Jian (苻健) and established a base in Ba Shang (灞上), present day east of XiAn/ChangAn in the province of ShaanXi （今陝西西安東).

The army was welcomed by the populace of Guan Zhong (關中) region who brought them gifts. Wang Meng was dressed simply in coarse hemp cloths and went boldly to the commander's tent seeking an audience.

During the formal audience, he talked of major affairs while removing lice, unperturbed by the reactions of those around him. Huan Wen was intrigued by the man and issued him a poser, asking why there were no local champions rallying to his army which had been ordered by the Son of Heaven to deal with the Former Qin.

Wang Meng replied that Huan Wen had advanced well into hostile territories and was within striking distance of Chang An, yet had not ordered his troops to cross the Ba river (灞水). Wang Meng pointed out that Huan Wen's behaviour caused doubts in the hearts of the local populace about his intentions and hence none rallied to him.

It was a most apt and risky reply, for it directly questioned the intentions of Huan Wen (who did harbour private ambitions of seizing the Eastern Jin throne but died before he could carry them out). Wang Meng was implying that Huan Wen's real purpose of the expedition was to make a name for himself and raise his prestige and influence in Eastern Jin in Jiang Dong (江東), instead of rescuing the people from the barbarians and restoring the territory of the Jin Dynasty. Huan Wen was unable to answer, and finally said, "There is no talent in Jiang Dong who could match you."

Shortly after, Huan Wen ordered a withdrawal. Prior to his departure, he presented Wang Meng with a magnificent carriage and horse, and offered Wang Meng a high official post if Wang returned with him southwards. Wang Meng declined.

[to be continued ...]

[Good work, Snowybeagle! Wang Meng is one of my favourite historical figures. I've made some slight corrections to the text, but otherwise it's great. - Yun]

[snowybeagle]

[Yun, noticed your change of "bandits/rebels" to "Former Qin". In that sentence, I was paraphrasing what the original article in Chinese "率十萬精兵討伐逆賊" or to quote Records of Jin - Accounts of Wang Meng 《晋书·王猛载记》 “吾奉天子之命，率锐师十万，杖义讨逆，为百姓除残贼，而三秦豪杰未有至者何也？”. Of course, we know it was against Former Qin and not rabbles, it's just officially the Jin was still in denial.

For those who do not read Chinese, there will be two different characters named Fu Jian in the HanYüPinYin. I will elaborate in this post before continuing the story of Wang Meng.

The Fu Jian (苻健) defeated by Jin general Huan Wen in part one is the uncle of the Fu Jian (苻坚) who managed to retain the services of Wang Meng in subsequent part of the story.

And though I said the Jin was in denial when Huan Wen said he was dealing with bandit rebels, there is some historical basis for it.

The Fu (苻) family had been chiefs of a XiRong (西戎) tribe in the western regions. The then chief Fu Hong (苻洪) submitted to Shi Hu (石虎) when he invaded GuanZhong and founded the State of Later Zhao (後趙). The tribe moved to a region in present day HeBei (河北) province.

Later, Fu Hong switched allegiance to the Eastern Jin and appointed by the Jin Court as Northern Conquest General (征北大將軍). Shortly afterwards, he proclaimed himself King of Qin (秦王).

After Fu Hong died, his son Fu Jian (苻健) seized GuanZhong in AD351, took the title of Emperor and established his capital in Chang An (長安). Thus, the Jin dynasty did have a cause to consider them as renegades, as the Fu clan did briefly formally submitted to Jin. This was the Fu Jian mentioned in the first part of this thread, defeated by Huan Wen.

This Fu Jian died in AD 355 (or some record AD 353) and was succeeded by his son Fú Shēng (苻生). Fu Sheng was an absolute tyrant and debauched ruler. He ordered his men to kill his ministers on a whim. Those who remonstrated him were accused of slander and killed, those who sang his praises were accused of flattery and also killed. All the courtiers lived in fear, and some hoped Fu Jian (苻坚) would replace Fu Sheng on the throne.

The second Fu Jian (苻坚) was son of Fu Xiong (苻雄), younger brother of the older Fu Jian who was defeated by Huan Wen. Fu Xiong was conferred as Prince of the Eastern Sea (東海王) for assisting his elder brother to establish the new state. Upon Fu Xiong's passing, Fu Jian succeeded to the title.

As a child, Fu Jian had delighted his grandfather Fu Hong by asking for an education. The latter was delighted as most of their tribesmen were uneducated and more interested in feasting. A tutor was engaged and taught Fu Jian history and the classical texts.

Fu Jian had wanted to depose of Fu Sheng, but for a long time, lacked sufficient power. Fu Sheng might have heard of rumours and remarked to a palace maid that the brothers Fu Fa (苻法) and Fu Jian (苻坚) were untrustworthy and wanted to kill them the next day. The palace maid waited until Fu Sheng slept, and secretly notified Fu Jian. Forced by the circumstances, Fu Jian gathered his trusted troops and attacked the palace while Fu Sheng was sleeping. Fu Sheng was dragged out and executed.

Supported by the other courtiers, Fu Jian ascended the throne in AD 357.

Fu Hong (苻洪) -> Fu Jian (苻健), reigned AD 351-355 -> Fu Sheng (苻生), reigned AD 355-357
Fu Hong (苻洪) -> Fu Xiong (苻雄), 東海王 -> Fu Jian (苻坚), reigned AD 357-385

This post has been edited by Yun: 18 January 2005 - 10:22 PM

[Yun]

Yep, Snowybeagle - you're right that Chinese dynasties routinely referred to their enemies as "rebels" (贼) or "slaves" (虏) rather than as legitimate states. A form of ideological and pychological warfare, which can also be regarded as 'denial'.

I might add that the Xiongnu founders of the Han/Former Zhao, the Murong Xianbei, and the Fu of the Former Qin were all former subjects of the Western or Eastern Jin. All rebelled when they became powerful enough to do so. It was not about 'barbarian invasions' as much as 'barbarian rebellions', just as with the foederati auxiliaries of Rome.

The Fu were known as either Western Rong 西戎 or Di 氐, and are usually said to be related to the 'proto-Tibetan' Qiang 羌. But more recent research suggests that they were more closely related to the Yunnan tribes (such as the Yi 彝 who founded Nanzhao).

Also, the two Fu Jians are indeed confusing because we don't usually indicate the tones in English. The elder Fu Jian had a fourth-tone Jian, while his nephew had a first-tone Jian. But in the Northern Wei, there were a father and son who were both emperors and named Tuoba Hong. The father was Hong 弘 (Emperor Xianwen), and the son was 宏 (the famous Emperor Xiaowen). Since these two words were the same tone, I can only assume that at this time, before the 'sinicising' policy of Emperor Xiaowen, the violation of your father's 'taboo name' (hui 讳) was not an issue for the Xianbei.

[snowybeagle]

[Wang Meng's story continued ...]

When the junior Fu Jian (苻坚) was just a general of Former Qin, he harboured great ambitions. He had long heard of Wang Meng and sent senior official Lü BoLou (呂婆楼) to invite Wang Meng out of his reclusive life. Fu Jian and Wang Meng hit off on their first meeting, and found complementing sentiments when discussing state affairs. Fu Jian considered Wang Meng comparable to Zhuge Liang (諸葛亮). When Fu Jian ascended the throne, Wang Meng was appointed as Zhong Shu Shi Lang (中书侍郎), Palace Secretary, a post responsible for managing state affairs, roughly equivalent to junior cabinet minister or permanent undersecretary [Correct me if I'm wrong, thanks].

Wang Meng's exceptional performance soon won him promotion to Shang Shu Zuo Cheng (尚书左丞), which is Administrative State Secretary of the Left, as well as Administrator of XianYang (咸阳內史) and Prefect of the Capital (京兆尹). Upon assuming the latter post, he learned that a brother of Fu Jian's wife was tyranissing the commoners, seizing their properties and goods, kidnapping men and women. Unafraid of dealing with the powerful, Wang Meng immediately had him arrested and executed, displaying the body at the market square.

Wang Meng also worked together with the Yü Shi Zhong Cheng (御史中丞), a Subordinate Censor, to investigate abuse of power among the officials. Within a month, they dealt with more than twenty powerful courtiers.

This greatly shook the Imperial Court, and the officials began to behave themselves. Fu Jian heaved a sigh and said now he appreciated the role of the Law and the dignity of his office.

At 36 years old, Wang Meng was promoted 5 times, to Li Bu Shang Shu (吏部尚书); State Secretary of Personnel, then Shang Shu Zuo Pu Ye (尚书左仆射); Executive State Secretary of the Left, Fu Guo Jiang Jun (辅国将军); Protector General, Si Li Xiao Wei (司隶校尉); Captain of the Capital Region Police.

[translatations of posts from Chinese to English provided by Yun, thanks.]

[to be continued ...]

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 20 January 2005 - 01:11 AM

[snowybeagle]

[Wang Meng's story continued ...]

Wang Meng's accomplishments covered both civil and military affairs. Beginning from AD 366, he successfully led an expedition to attack the region of JingZhou (荊州) of Eastern Jin, suppressed rebellion by the Qiang tribal leader Jian(?) Qi (斂歧), subdued Former Liang (前涼) which was under Zhang TianCi (張天錫), among other ventures. At the same time, he put down an internal revolt of the Fu clan which was led by Fu Liu (苻柳), Fu Shuang (苻雙), Fu Shou (苻廋) and Fu Wu (苻武).
In general, he ended most separatism in northern China.

In AD 369, he led an army to rescue Former Yan (前燕) and together with the army of Former Yan, defeated the forces of the Eastern Jin which was attempting to recapture their northern territories. Months later, he turned against Former Yan and captured their state.

After the conquest of Former Yan, Fu Jian poured accolades on Wang Meng, appointing him in charge of the military affairs of the 6 provinces east of the Pass (都督关東六州诸军事), General of the Cavalry (車騎大將軍), Governor of Ji Zhou (冀州牧). Wang Meng had total control of the affairs in the assigned regions, and may make his own decisions and inform the Civil Service ministry afterwards.

[to be continued ...]

[Yun]

Some minor corrections:

Lü Bu Shang Shu (吏部尚书) is actually Li(4)bu Shangshu, and is the State Secretary of Personnel, not Minister of Law.

Shang Shu Zuo Pu She (尚书左仆射) is Shangshu Zuo Puye(4) [special pronunciation of the word 射), and is Executive State Secretary of the Left, not Left Senior Minister.

Yü Lü Zhong Cheng (御史中丞) is Yushi(3) Zhongcheng, and is the Subordinate Censor, the assistant to the Supreme Censor (Yushi Dafu) who checks on the behaviour of the officials and reports any abuses.

Si Li Xiao Wei (司隶校尉) is not Inspector-General but rather Captain of the Capital Region Police.

Zhong Shu Shi Lang (中书侍郎) can be translated as Palace Secretary, but your definition of it is essentially correct.

Shang Shu Zuo Cheng (尚书左丞) is Administrative State Secretary of the Left. Your definition is correct.

Chinese ranks and posts are confusing, and I'm probably the only one on this forum who has bothered to work out a system for translating and classifying them. So no worries, ok?

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Jan 20 2005, 12:13 PM, said:

Lü Bu Shang Shu (吏部尚书) is actually Li(4)bu Shangshu, and is the State Secretary of Personnel, not Minister of Law.

Unforgivable slip on my part! Simply too careless of me.
No wonder my missus insists my daughter does not learn Chinese pronounciation from me

Thanks, Yun.

I will edit the posts accordingly soon.

[snowybeagle]

[Wang Meng's story, continued ... Request to Yun to correct the title names]

In the 6th month of AD 372, Fu Jian transferred his brother Fu Rong (苻融) to take over the defense at Ye Cheng (邺城), and recalled Wang Meng to the capital to assume the position of Prime Minister (丞相), Supervisory Palace Secretary or Zhong Shu Jian (中书监), Chief State Secretary Shang Shu Ling (尚书令), Grand Tutor to the Crown Prince (太子太傅), and empowered him to take charge of all internal and external affairs of the military.

Wang Meng fulfilled the expections upon him:
- directing the government effectively,
- instilled proper decorum in the Imperial Court,
- distinguished the worthies from the unworthies,
- employed talented people according to their capabilities,
- assigned powers to officials according to their duties,
- promoted education and agriculture,
- produced a well-trained and disciplined army,
led the state of Former Qin into a picture of a rising powerful kingdom.

In AD 375, 6th month, Wang Meng fell ill from overwork. Fu Jian was frantic and personally conducted prayer ceremonies for Wang Meng's health, and despatched representatives to conduct the same at various renowned mountains and rivers. When Wang Meng showed some signs of recovery, Fu Jian was so exultant that he declared special reprieve to convicts under the death sentence.

In the 7th month though, Wang Meng's illness took a turn for the worse. Fu Jian personally visited Wang Meng and requested for instructions for arrangements if Wang Meng were to pass away.

On his deathbed, Wang Meng solemnly adviced Fu Jian," The Jin Dynasty may be isolated to the Jiang Nan region, but it still held the mandate of the Hua Xia orthodoxy (华夏正統) and was still relatively stable at various levels of society. After my death, your majesty must refrain from having designs of invading Jin. The various tribes within your borders, the XianBei (鲜卑), Western Qiang (西羌) etc., may have submitted to your tribe's rule but their loyalty is unreliable. These are our nemesis, sooner or later, they will betray us, and thus please deal with them progressively to safeguard the State.

Having said that, Wang Meng breathed his last. Fu Jian wept thrice before the coffin and told the Crown Prince Fu Hong (苻宏), "It seems that Heaven is obstructing me from unifying the realms, why else would my Jing Lue (景略) be taken away so soon?"

Fu Jian ordered a state funeral for Wang Meng on the same scale as how the Han Dynasty honoured the great general Huo Guang (霍光), and posthumously conferred upon Wang Meng as the Martial Marquis (武侯).

Despite Wang Meng's last heartfelt advice, Fu Jian went on later to invade the Eastern Jin. At the Battle of Fei Sui (淝水), he suffered a disastrous defeat. The various tribes which had previously submitted to him rebelled one after another.

[snowybeagle]

Why did I name him as the person who could have unified China?

First, he was talented. He was an ethnic Han, who displayed his capabilities in convincingly running the government of a non ethnic Han dynasty. True, his master, Fu Jian, was educated in the Chinese classics, but he also had to deal with other powerful members who were not and had scant respect for Chinese classics. The Chinese classics did not save the Jin dynasty from being routed.

Wang Meng did not succeed in unifying the diverse tribes within the Former Qin, but he succeeded in making the Former Qin a significant power in the era, which was no mean feat considering the ruling tribe of the Former Qin was one ethnic minority against numerous others, with a background of majority of ethnic Hans.

Wang Meng could have achieved more had he lived longer.

Though he said the Eastern Jin was not to be taken lightly, that dynasty was on the verge of tearing itself apart, with rampant corruption, exploitation of the populace and no strong leadership. Ironically, it was the threat of the Former Qin's invasion that united the court of Eastern Jin, entrusting power to the leadership of Xie An. After winning the battle of Fei Sui, the Eastern Jin court resumed their self-destructive ways.

The fact that Wang Meng visited Huan Wen indicated he had considered serving the latter. Huan Wen went on to become one of the most powerful figures in Eastern Jin, and only fear of his dominance caused his foes to unite to oppose him. When Huan Wen led the northern expeditions, there was no strong state in northern China strong enough to oppose the Eastern Jin had the latter been sufficiently determined. Ironically, it was Wang Meng who was responsible for defeats of subsequent attempts by Eastern Jin to reclaim the lost lands of the north.

Wang Meng was unlikely to have been welcomed on his own merit into the court of Eastern Jin - he was not of the Shi Zu background - landed gentry scholar class.

Had Wang Meng found Huan Wen a worthy master to serve, Huan Wen could have achieved much more and the Eastern Jin could have reclaimed much of their lost territories.

Serving Fu Jian though, limited Wang Meng to pacify the north which was in chaos.

Opinions, any one?

[Yun]

I personally find Wang Meng to have been a better Prime Minister, strategist and general than Zhuge Liang, but of course Fu Jian was also a better ruler than Liu Bei. At least Fu Jian's disastrous invasion of the Eastern Jin was carried out for better reasons than Liu Bei's disastrous invasion of Wu, and only happened after Wang Meng had died. That Zhuge Liang couldn't stop Liu Bei is strange, and I believe it was because he was afraid of losing his political position by angering Liu Bei.

However, I think that Wang Meng's deathbed warning to Fu Jian about invading the Eastern Jin was made up by the Tang historians who wrote the Jin Shu, simply to be wise after the fact. They needed to explain why Heaven allowed Fu Jian to fail, but opened up a logical paradox. If the Eastern Jin's time was not up, and it was still stable and harmonious, why did it collapse into civil war and rebellion just 15 years after Fei River? The only thing that saved the Eastern Jin was Liu Yu's rise to power, and he then used his power to usurp the throne anyway (just like Huan Wen had wanted to, and Huan Xuan actually did).

The fact remains that if Fu Jian had conquered the Eastern Jin, his subject peoples wouldn't have rebelled, he would have ruled the south much better than any of the Southern Dynasties did, and the Age of Fragmentation would be over 200 years earlier. It might still have been a gamble, but the odds were definitely so much in Fu Jian's favour that he didn't see any reason why he should just wait for the Eastern Jin to collapse by itself.