[Dusto]

Which of these is more popular in China? Which do you find more entertaining? I've only read Outlaws of the Marsh (Water Margin), myself, and I loved it. I understand that Romance of the Three Kingdoms is more historical and less character-centered. Is that so? One of the things I loved about Outlaws of the Marsh was all of the great characters (Li Kui was probably my favorite). Are the characters in ROTK as memorable and well-drawn? I'll probably read ROTK some time soon, just because it seems to be such a big influence on Louis Cha (I'm reading The Deer and the Cauldron right now), but i'm just curious what people think about it in relation to Outlaws of the Marsh.

[Yun]

ROTK and Outlaws were actually both written or co-written by Luo Guanzhong (the other co-writer of Outlaws was Shi Nai'an). Outlaws runs more on setpiece stories, in which different characters take turns to occupy centrestage and may then fade into the background (for example, Lin Chong and Wu Song). ROTK has an overarching plot that follows historical events (although with many distortions), and focuses more on a few characters throughout. There are some parallels in key characters, for example Song Jiang and Liu Bei, Wu Yong and Zhuge Liang, and Li Kui and Zhang Fei.

[Moose]

Yun, on Jan 25 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

ROTK and Outlaws were actually both written or co-written by Luo Guanzhong (the other co-writer of Outlaws was Shi Nai'an). Outlaws runs more on setpiece stories, in which different characters take turns to occupy centrestage and may then fade into the background (for example, Lin Chong and Wu Song). ROTK has an overarching plot that follows historical events (although with many distortions), and focuses more on a few characters throughout. There are some parallels in key characters, for example Song Jiang and Liu Bei, Wu Yong and Zhuge Liang, and Li Kui and Zhang Fei.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zhao Yun and Hua Rong?Xiahou Dun/XiaHou Yuan and Guo Sheng/Lu Fang

[ShuHan]

I tend to favor Three Kingdoms or Romance of the Three Kingdoms because in this book it features a lots of great warriors, heroes, scholars, strategists, poets, and essaylists. The only thing I heard about Outlaws of Marsh is Lin Cong and Wu Song their stories. Back to what I was saying Three Kingdoms is superbs when it come to tell an epic historical novel and unlike western fairytales this book doesn't really have a happy ending for every characters and especially for the ShuHan kingdom. I thinking to looking forward on reading Outlaws of Marsh so where in the future.

[Liang Jieming]

Most Chinese stories don't end well. We seem to like writing about the underdog and tragic tales rather than the winners.

I prefer ROTK over Water Margin because Water Margin gets too much into the nitty-gritty of things. I'm more an epic person. Give me a good boardsweeping epic anyday.

[snowybeagle]

Liang Jieming, on Jan 26 2005, 10:28 AM, said:

Most Chinese stories don't end well.  We seem to like writing about the underdog and tragic tales rather than the winners.

Well, it's not that there's no stories where the heroes ended well.

For example, the tales of Journey to the West (西游记) [though for me, I was most thrilled when Sun WuKong was at his own island kingdom and his own agent], Accounts of Chu-Han Contention (楚汉争霸录) [unless you were rooting against Han], Xue family generals (薛家将), Huyan family generals (呼延家将), Di family generals (狄家将), Xiao Wu Yi (小五义) etc. had relatively happy endings.

But these seemed to be less popular compared to the tragedies such as Yang family generals (杨家将), Yue family generals (岳家将), Twelve Widows on the Western Expeditions (十二寡妇征西), and of course, the other three most famous novels - Dream of the Red Mansions (红楼梦), Outlaws of the Marsh (水浒传) and RoTK (三国演义) [unless you were not rooting for Han].

But it seems to be a human trait. The Ballad of Roland was probably the most well known tale from the period of Charlemagne. The Legend of King Arthur and Robin Hood was probably more well known than real life accounts of Alfred the Great. In myths, the Nibelungen, Ragnarok etc., also dominates.

It's not that we prefer tragedies, but most people identify with the weaknesses seen in larger than life characters rather than strengths.

[yuchen_116]

Three Kingdoms is a epical novel bases upon historical facts, many detailed plots are fabricated completely by Luo Guanzhong himself or from folk tales. As is known to all, this novel has been adapted into various types of dramas since its birth, adapted into movie and TV scrpts now. Furthermore, many of its fabricated plots are considered as historical facts in the Chinese mainland. Outlaws of the Marsh, sometimes translated as Water Margin, is a saga, based on true facts -- rebellions in the Song Dynasty. This is my favourite when' I was a teenager. However, once I reach adulthood, I seldom read it for the worldview and values it advocates are really out-of-date, far from our modern life. Wuxia fiction becomes a substitute for it to me.

[fireball]

I like Outlaws of the Marsh better also. There seem to be more interesting characters. In Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I just like Juge Liang and Zhao Yun. The other characters all seem to be a blur to me. I got bored by just strategies.

[fcharton]

fireball, on Nov 14 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

I like Outlaws of the Marsh better also. There seem to be more interesting characters. In Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I just like Juge Liang and Zhao Yun. The other characters all seem to be a blur to me. I got bored by just strategies.

I agree, I read Outlaws of the Marshes twice, and would consider reading it a third time (maybe in chinese, even...). I did try to read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (in chinese, in english, and in french) several times, but it never sort of worked for me... so it is still on my "to read" list.

About historical novels, I sort of preferred the Dongzhou Lieguozhi (possibly because it is the era I'm interested in, and also because there is more variety).

Francois

[fireball]

fcharton, on Nov 14 2007, 05:02 AM, said:

About historical novels, I sort of preferred the Dongzhou Lieguozhi (possibly because it is the era I'm interested in, and also because there is more variety).

You too! I love that book! It helped me get into the later Zhou dynasty period. I would say that my history test scores for that period were greatly improved after reading it.

[fcharton]

fireball, on Nov 14 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

You too! I love that book! It helped me get into the later Zhou dynasty period. I would say that my history test scores for that period were greatly improved after reading it.

There is actually a very famous story about some chinese leader (or intellectual?) from the 20th century, who, when his only daughter was leaving for the west (and for good) offered her a copy of the Dongzhou Lieguozhi, because, he said "everything important was in it".

I remember suggesting that we have a translation project for this one... It is fairly easy (because it is almost modern chinese), has never been translated for what I know, and would most probably be very easy to publish in Europe or America...

Francois

[Aaron]

I enjoyed both of them, though I have read through Romance of the Three Kingdoms more times. (I've just finished my eighth reading of it. (The C.H. Brewitt Taylor transaltion, as I alternate between that and the Moss Roberts.) Also my version of Outlaws of the Marsh is called All Men are Brothers (The translator is Pearl S. Buck) Though I have read other versions, and they are the same only my copy for some reason seems to flow more so than other ones I've read.