[Gubook Janggoon]

Dunno how you pronounce it in Chinese but in Korean it's Gan...

*The following are all Korean pronounciations.

It seems like it was a popular denotation for a ruler in Gaya and Shilla

For instance the first 5 kings of Gaya, before Suro, held this title.

Hyeokkose, the founder of Shilla held the title Geoseogan 居西干

The next two major titles that came were Chachaung 次次雄 and Isageum 泥師今

And then 干 comes up again with Shilseong who held the title: Maripgan 麻立干

and then about 500 ce these titles are given up for the more sinicized Wang 王
(I hope these characters are right... typing in Chinese is hard )

My question is has this title been used for any other cultures? What exactly does it mean? Does it have to do with the word Khan (Ie Genghis Khan)?

[wlee15]

The transliteration of the title of Khan in Modern Chinese is "汗" -han rising tone Mandarin, hon falling low tone Cantonese- meaning sweat, but I not sure if that has always been the case.

[hansioux]

Gubuk Janggoon, on Jan 27 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

Dunno how you pronounce it in Chinese but in Korean it's Gan...

It seems like it was a popular denotation for a ruler in Gaya and Shilla

For instance the first 5 kings of Gaya, before Suro, held this title.

Hyeokkose, the founder of Shilla held the title Geoseogan 居西干

The next two major titles that came were Chachaung 次次雄 abd Isageum 泥師今

And then 干 comes up again with Shilseong who held the title: Maripgan 麻立干

and then about 500 ce these titles are given up for the more sinicized Wang 王
(I hope these characters are right... typing in Chinese is hard )

My question is has this title been used for any other cultures?  What exactly does it mean?  Does it have to do with the word Khan (Ie Genghis Khan)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, this 干 is obviously just another Han translation for the word Khan. The most popular translation for this word is 汗. It just means that these rulers had closer cultural ties with the nomads.

[Sephodwyrm]

Well, the word KHAN/GHAN is probably Central Asian or Steppe in general, and the way to pronounce it is very different from the mandarin pronunciation of 干 (Gan). It is not a solid G but more like a rough H. That's probably why 汗 was more accurate.

And of course, there's also the title of Qa'ghan which is in Chinese 可汗. You can try to contact Yihesan for this matter...if he's around that is.

[hansioux]

Sephodwyrm, on Jan 27 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

Well, the word KHAN/GHAN is probably Central Asian or Steppe in general, and the way to pronounce it is very different from the mandarin pronunciation of 干 (Gan). It is not a solid G but more like a rough H. That's probably why 汗 was more accurate.

And of course, there's also the title of Qa'ghan which is in Chinese 可汗. You can try to contact Yihesan for this matter...if he's around that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These Corean ruler names was not translated in Mandarin

[Gubook Janggoon]

Thanks for the help so far...I'll talk to Yihesan if I ever seem him around...

[Wú Fēi]

Gubuk Janggoon, on Jan 28 2005, 08:13 AM, said:

Dunno how you pronounce it in Chinese but in Korean it's Gan...

*The following are all Korean pronounciations.

It seems like it was a popular denotation for a ruler in Gaya and Shilla

For instance the first 5 kings of Gaya, before Suro, held this title.

Hyeokkose, the founder of Shilla held the title Geoseogan 居西干

The next two major titles that came were Chachaung 次次雄 and Isageum 泥師今

And then 干 comes up again with Shilseong who held the title: Maripgan 麻立干

and then about 500 ce these titles are given up for the more sinicized Wang 王

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Factually the character of "干" was not used independently in the ancient language of one of the "Three 韩/韓", so that the usage of "干" had nothing to do with the steppe tribes' title of Khan.
The Origin Of "居西干"
According to 《三国遗事·新羅始祖 赫居世王》 (The stories about The Three kindoms; there the three kingdoms were not those mentioned as Centeria's "魏/魏", "蜀/蜀", and "吴/吳", but ancient "高句丽/高句麗", "百济/百濟", "新罗/新羅" in the place which is today's Korea Peninsula.), it was said that:
"因名赫居世王(蓋鄉言也。或作弗矩內王言光明理世也。說者云。是西述聖母之所誕也。故中華人讚仚桃聖母。有娠賢肇邦之語是也。乃至雞龍現瑞產閼英。又焉知非西述聖母之所現耶)位號曰居瑟邯(或作居西干。初開■之時。自稱云。閼智居西干一起。因其言稱之。自後為王者之尊稱)時人爭賀曰。".
The general translation about this quotation is:
"So that he was named as king '赫居世' (Assumably from local dialect. ...), with the title of '居瑟邯' (Another way of the characters was '居西干'. It was his self-styled word when his first time opening [mouth to speak]. ... So that called him after his word. Later the word was changed into the title of the king.) ..."
Note: ■ is the already existing absence of a character in the original text I have.
The Meaning Of "居西干", "次次雄", "尼師今" And "麻立干"
According to 《三国遗事·第二南解王》, is was said that:
"新羅稱王曰居西干。辰言王也。或云。呼貴人之稱。或曰。次次雄。或作慈充金大問云。次次雄方言謂巫也。世人以巫事鬼神尚祭祀。故畏敬之。遂稱尊長者為慈充。或云。尼師今。言謂齒理也。初南解王薨。子弩禮讓位於脫解。解云。吾聞聖智人多齒。乃試以餅噬之。古傳如此。或曰麻立干(立一作袖)金大問云。麻立者。方言謂橛也。橛標准位而置。則王橛為主。臣橛列於下。因以名之。史論曰。新羅稱居西干。次次雄者一。尼師今者十六。麻立干者★。四羅末名儒崔致遠作帝王年代曆。皆稱某王。不言居西干等。豈以其言鄙野不足稱之也。今記新羅事。具存方言亦宜矣。羅人凡追封者稱葛文王。"
The general translation about this quotation is:
"Silla's king was called as '居西干'. It was from the language of '辰[韓]' kindom. It was said to be used to call the noblemen as well. The title of the king were also '次次雄', or '慈充', said by 金大問. In the dialect, '次次雄' meant 'shaman'. The masses regarded shamans for they were in charge of offering sacrifices to and worshiping ghosts and gods. That was why they awed shamans. They respected the elderly as '慈充', or '尼師今', which meant 'the order of teeth'. At the time of 南解王's death, his son, 弩禮 [as also as 儒理], gave up the throne to 脫解 [弩禮's younger sisiter's husband]. 脫解 said, 'I've heard of that sages have more teeth [than the common]; we'd better to bite the pancake to make sure [the number of our teeth]'. It was said so from of old. There was also called the title of the king as '麻立干' (立一作袖?), said by 金大問. That called 麻立 meant peg/short wooden stake in dialect. ... At the end of 四羅 [?], the well-known Confucian, 崔致遠, wrote the kings with the title of '王' instead of '居西干' and the like, when he compiled the chronology of them. ..."
Note: ★ is added by me, for I think there must be a figure but nothing in the original text I have.
The Annals
--Till 3rd century A.D., Silla only took up the narrow territory which are today's east part of 庆尚南道/慶尚南道 and 庆尚北道/慶尚北道, and a partial area of 江原道/江原道. The grain production, especially the rice planting, was developed for using farm implements made of iron.
--At the end of 5th century A.D., Silla began to set up posthouses in the important locations all over the nation, as well as build public roads and set up fairs in the capital city, 庆州/慶州, to carry on the nationwide trade of goods and materials.
--502 A.D., Silla started to use farm cattles in cultivation, and stopped the system of burying slaves alive with the dead.
--503 A.D., Silla changed the name of the nation formally into "新罗/新羅", and changed the titles of the king as "居西干/居西干", "次次雄/次次雄", "尼师今/尼師今" and "麻立干/麻立干" into "国王/國王", too.
--505 A.D., Silla established the administration system of 州/州, 郡/郡 and 县/縣 completely, following the model of Tang Dynasty's regime of centralization.
================================
I've corrected my mistake of "Tree 韩/韓" in to "Three 韩/韓", and "Tree kindoms" into "Three kindoms". Sorry for that carelessness.

This post has been edited by Wú Fēi: 29 January 2005 - 02:09 AM

[hansioux]

Wú Fēi, on Jan 28 2005, 06:42 AM, said:

Factually the character of "干" was not used independently in the ancient language of one of the "Tree 韩/韓", so that the usage of "干" had nothing to do with the steppe tribes' title of Khan.
The Origin Of "居西干"
According to 《三国遗事·新羅始祖 赫居世王》 (The stories about The Tree kindoms; there the tree kingdoms were not those mentioned as Centeria's "魏/魏", "蜀/蜀", and "吴/吳", but ancient "高句丽/高句麗", "百济/百濟", "新罗/新羅" in the place which is today's Korea Peninsula.), it was said that:
"因名赫居世王(蓋鄉言也。或作弗矩內王言光明理世也。說者云。是西述聖母之所誕也。故中華人讚仚桃聖母。有娠賢肇邦之語是也。乃至雞龍現瑞產閼英。又焉知非西述聖母之所現耶)位號曰居瑟邯(或作居西干。初開■之時。自稱云。閼智居西干一起。因其言稱之。自後為王者之尊稱)時人爭賀曰。".
The general translation about this quotation is:
"So that he was named as king '赫居世' (Assumably from local dialect. ...), with the title of '居瑟邯' (Another way of the characters was '居西干'. It was his self-styled word when his first time opening [mouth to speak]. ... So that called him after his word. Later the word was changed into the title of the king.) ..."
Note: ■ is the already existing absence of a character in the original text I have.
The Meaning Of "居西干", "次次雄", "尼師今" And "麻立干"
According to 《三国遗事·第二南解王》, is was said that:
"新羅稱王曰居西干。辰言王也。或云。呼貴人之稱。或曰。次次雄。或作慈充金大問云。次次雄方言謂巫也。世人以巫事鬼神尚祭祀。故畏敬之。遂稱尊長者為慈充。或云。尼師今。言謂齒理也。初南解王薨。子弩禮讓位於脫解。解云。吾聞聖智人多齒。乃試以餅噬之。古傳如此。或曰麻立干(立一作袖)金大問云。麻立者。方言謂橛也。橛標准位而置。則王橛為主。臣橛列於下。因以名之。史論曰。新羅稱居西干。次次雄者一。尼師今者十六。麻立干者★。四羅末名儒崔致遠作帝王年代曆。皆稱某王。不言居西干等。豈以其言鄙野不足稱之也。今記新羅事。具存方言亦宜矣。羅人凡追封者稱葛文王。"
The general translation about this quotation is:
"Silla's king was called as '居西干'. It was from the language of '辰[韓]' kindom. It was said to be used to call the noblemen as well. The title of the king were also '次次雄', or '慈充', said by 金大問. In the dialect, '次次雄' meant 'shaman'. The masses regarded shamans for they were in charge of offering sacrifices to and worshiping ghosts and gods. That was why they awed shamans. They respected the elderly as '慈充', or '尼師今', which meant 'the order of teeth'. At the time of 南解王's death, his son, 弩禮 [as also as 儒理], gave up the throne to 脫解 [弩禮's younger sisiter's husband]. 脫解 said, 'I've heard of that sages have more teeth [than the common]; we'd better to bite the pancake to make sure [the number of our teeth]'. It was said so from of old. There was also called the title of the king as '麻立干' (立一作袖?), said by 金大問. That called 麻立 meant peg/short wooden stake in dialect. ... At the end of 四羅 [?], the well-known Confucian, 崔致遠, wrote the kings with the title of '王' instead of '居西干' and the like, when he compiled the chronology of them. ..."
Note: ★ is added by me, for I think there must be a figure but nothing in the original text I have.
The Annals
--Till 3rd century A.D., Silla only took up the narrow territory which are today's east part of 庆尚南道/慶尚南道 and 庆尚北道/慶尚北道, and a partial area of 江原道/江原道. The grain production, especially the rice planting, was developed for using farm implements made of iron.
--At the end of 5th century A.D., Silla began to set up posthouses in the important locations all over the nation, as well as build public roads and set up fairs in the capital city, 庆州/慶州, to carry on the nationwide trade of goods and materials.
--502 A.D., Silla started to use farm cattles in cultivation, and stopped the system of burying slaves alive with the dead.
--503 A.D., Silla changed the name of the nation formally into "新罗/新羅", and changed the titles of the king as "居西干/居西干", "次次雄/次次雄", "尼师今/尼師今" and "麻立干/麻立干" into "国王/國王", too.
--505 A.D., Silla established the administration system of 州/州, 郡/郡 and 县/縣 completely, following the model of Tang Dynasty's regime of centralization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

次次雄方言謂巫也。世人以巫事鬼神尚祭祀。

By the quotes you provided us, then the word 干 seems to be relecting to the word Qam (aka Kham), refering to a shamman priest. Qam in Han language often translates to 甘, which in traditional Han language pronounced as Gam.

[Wú Fēi]

hansioux, on Jan 29 2005, 02:19 AM, said:

次次雄方言謂巫也。世人以巫事鬼神尚祭祀。

By the quotes you provided us, then the word 干 seems to be relecting to the word Qam (aka Kham), refering to a shamman priest.  Qam in Han language often translates to 甘, which in traditional Han language pronounced as Gam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what did the word "Qam" or "Gam" mean in the ancient style of language. I've found nothing by far in 《三國遺事》 about the independent usage of "干". Perhaps it had something to do with "Gam" or "Qam". But for me, it seems to play as a whole when saying "居西干" or "麻立干". BTW, is the word Han you just mentioned "韓" or "漢"?

[Gubook Janggoon]

Wow Wufei! Thanks for that great explanation! There seems to be something conflicting though. It seems that the Gaya nations used the word independantly. Check 三國遺事 story 58 about Gaya/Garak. "Since the Creation of heaven and earth there had been no national name and no king of the people of the Gimhae region (north of the Nakdong River delta). The nine chiefs of Ado-gan, Yeodo-gan, Pido-gan, Odo-gan, Yusu-gan, Yucheon-gan, Shincheon-gan, Ocheon-gan, and Sinkwi-gan ruled over the 75000 natives, who plowed their fields and sank wells to support their simple lives."

I'm assuming here that the first two syllables of each of the chiefs are their names and I'm sure that the Gan that appears afterwards is 干. So could it be that the word means chief?

[hansioux]

Gubuk Janggoon, on Jan 28 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

Wow Wufei!  Thanks for that great explanation!  There seems to be something conflicting though.  It seems that the Gaya nations used the word independantly.  Check 三國遺事 story 58 about Gaya/Garak.  "Since the Creation of heaven and earth there had been no national name and no king of the people of the Gimhae region (north of the Nakdong River delta).  The nine chiefs of Ado-gan, Yeodo-gan, Pido-gan, Odo-gan, Yusu-gan, Yucheon-gan, Shincheon-gan, Ocheon-gan, and Sinkwi-gan ruled over the 75000 natives, who plowed their fields and sank wells to support their simple lives."

I'm assuming here that the first two syllables of each of the chiefs are their names and I'm sure that the Gan that appears afterwards is 干.  So could it be that the word means chief?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am now pretty convinced it's a translation of Qam. It seems like in the recordings these leaders are also religious leaders. Shamman religious leaders. Qam is shamman equivalent of 巫.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hmm...yes Shaman Leader seems to make sense....so I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the Kahns....ok...good so far. So are there no other cultures who have used this denotation for their rulers?

[Wú Fēi]

Gubuk Janggoon, I've found your quotation in Centerian text.
"開闢之後。此地未有邦國之號。亦無君臣之稱。越有我刀干。汝刀干。彼刀干。五刀干。留水干。留天干。神天干。五天干。神鬼干等九干者。是酋長領總百姓凡一百戶。七萬五千人。多以自都山野。鑿井而飲耕田而食。屬後漢世祖光武帝建武十八年壬寅三月禊洛之日。"
Yes, the word of "Gan" here seems referring to the "chief" of both religion and administration. But was there any relationship between the meanings and usages of "Gan" in the languages of Gaya and Silla? Of course there must be some, since they lived together and had something similar in the culture and language; but I can't make it sure.
For the quotation of hansioux, I think there must be something common for those northern tribes. As Shamanism was originated in the area which is today's northeast Asia and the east of the steppe, and commonly spread there, it was possible to use the same name to call the chief of shamans. What we need are exact and clear proof evidences.

[hansioux]

新羅

新羅國，在高麗東南，居漢時樂浪之地，或稱斯羅。魏將毌丘儉討高麗，破之，奔
沃沮。其後復歸故國，留者遂為新羅焉。故其人雜有華夏、高麗、百濟之屬，兼有沃沮、
不耐、韓獩之地。其王本百濟人，自海逃入新羅，遂王其國。傳祚至金真平，開皇十四
年，遣使貢方物。高祖拜真平為上開府、樂浪郡公、新羅王。其先附庸於百濟，後因百
濟征高麗，高麗人不堪戎役，相率歸之，遂致強盛，因襲百濟，附庸於迦羅國。

其官有十七等：其一曰伊罰干，貴如相國；次伊尺干，次迎干，次破彌干，次大阿
尺干，次阿尺干，次乙吉干，次沙咄干，次及伏干，次大奈摩干，次奈摩，次大捨，次
小舍，次吉土，次大烏，次小烏，次造位。外有郡縣。其文字、甲兵同於中國。選人壯
健者悉入軍，烽、戍、邏俱有屯管部伍。風俗、刑政、衣服，略與高麗、百濟同。每正
月旦相賀，王設宴會，班賚群官。其日拜日月神。至八月十五日，設樂，令官人射，賞
以馬布。其有大事，則聚群官詳議而定之。服色尚素。婦人辮發繞頭，以雜彩及珠為飾。
婚嫁之禮，唯酒食而已，輕重隨貧富。新婚之夕，女先拜舅姑，次即拜夫。死有棺斂，
葬起墳陵。王及父母妻子喪，持服一年。田甚良沃，水陸兼種。其五谷、果菜、鳥獸物
產，略與華同。大業以來，歲遣朝貢。新羅地多山險，雖與百濟構隙，百濟亦不能圖之。

Gubuk, this passage on Silla is from Sui Shu. Sui is the nation that attacked Kogoryo, so should be interesting to see what they have to say about Coreans.

Well, as you can see I high lighted the 干 related part.

http://www.angelibra.../duoshu/081.htm

See like for all Corean states.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Care to translate real quick?