[TMPikachu]

I'm curious about the conditions which lead to the fall of (what I consider to be) one of the greatest of Dynasties.

I've also heard of Tang's rather progressive view of women (They even had a ruling Empress, right?). But after Tang times comes around foot binding and women's place in society declined. How did that happen?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Tang Dynasty started its decline due to Tang Xuan Zong's infatuations of Concubine Yang, so much so that he neglected state affairs and pass everything to Gao Lishi. In the north commandery, Anlushan plotted a rebellion in Tang called Anshi Rebellion that lasted almost 10 years around 750 AD. This generally lead to Tang's decline. Plus the later emperors were weak with eunch corruption monopolizing the court until 907 AD, it collapsed.

Tang was quite liberal towards women. Yes they have a female emperor (the 1st empress in Chinese history) who's called Wu Zetian. She was a ruthless empress who wielded much power. She was formerly a court maid serving Emperor Tang Taizong. After Taizong's death, she was sent to a buddhist monastery to become a nun. But during this time, Gaozong (the successor to the throne of Taizong) had already fell in love with Wu Zetian, decided to bring her back to court. Gaozong was a weak emperor who 'listen' to Wu Zetian. Eventually, Wu Zetian became a queen and became increasingly involved in state affairs. After Gaozong's death, she became the empress, changing the name of "Tang" to "Zhou". Wu Zetian was a ruthless lady who killed even her own son.

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I've also heard of Tang's rather progressive view of women (They even had a ruling Empress, right?). But after Tang times comes around foot binding and women's place in society declined. How did that happen?

The decline of women status happened after Tang dynasty, esp. during Song dynasty period largely due to the spread of neo-confucianism which tends to debase women's status. Women are required to follow a strict rules of serving husband and were not allowed to have high status.

[TMPikachu]

The eunichs, they were advisors, right? How did they gain power? They were around since the founding of Tang, right?

How did neo-confucianism spread after the fall of Tang?

[Liang Jieming]

The Eunuchs have been around even longer than that. They were also partly responsible for bringing down the Han dynasty with the infighting between the Eunuchs and the Empress & Imperial Families.

[RollingWave]

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Tang Dynasty started its decline due to Tang Xuan Zong's infatuations of Concubine Yang, so much so that he neglected state affairs and pass everything to Gao Lishi. In the north commandery, Anlushan plotted a rebellion in Tang called Anshi Rebellion that lasted almost 10 years around 750 AD. This generally lead to Tang's decline. Plus the later emperors were weak with eunch corruption monopolizing the court until 907 AD, it collapsed.

personal problems of the emperor always tend to be a excuse, many emperors had much more problems than Tang Xuan Zong yet did better. on the other hand if it wasn't for Xuan Zong Tang would have declined even sooner.

The REAL problem started a lot like the fall of Rome, Foreign Mercenary/Auxillaries began to from up a good part of the Tang's most capable armies espically at the commanding level, which happens to most empires when their kingdoms grows too large and their army need to be stationed too far.

An Lu Shang was the greatest of such foreign general, and he gained the trust and favor of Xuan Zong, who eventrually gave him control of 3 major army establishments in the north. this pretty much like a rich nobel giving a poor strong man a big sword then turn he's back on him.... An Lu Shang had he's ambitions and more importantly he was feeling threatened as Yang Gou Zhong keep attacking him in the courts.

As a result to this rebellion, the Tang much like the Eastern Han dynasty during the Yellow turban rebellions, had to give full authorities to local leaders and various generals to defeat this rebellion, but such powers once let go is almost impossible to retake. so after the An Shi rebellion ended, So did Tang's effective central rule, it became more like the Eastern Zhou dynasty or the Japanese Emperor, with a lot less real power than nominal power. as the local generals pretty much became autonomous from the empire.

Though through diplomacy and will the Tang was still able to maintain this uneasy balance...... but their central rule was effectively over as sometimes they can't even control their eastern capital of Lo Yang let alone more remote areas. the Huang Chao peasent rebellion was just the last straw on a camel's back to cause eveything to come crashing down.

As for the Tang's openess to women... yes and no... depending on which way you look at it.

The Tang was very influenced by nomadic cultures in the north and by other central asian culture. this was the main reason that it threated women differently than later dynasties.

One of the most frequently used example is that women rode horses during the Tang.. which is quiet unthinkable of most later dynasties. however, in the example of the Song which most people like to compare, horses itself was much more rare than it as during that Tang in the first place, which is usually a major oversight in the argument.

In legal terms women during the Song were arguablly better off than Tang, with more legally protected rights, which more importantly extended to everybody, unlike the Tang which the main example of women rights only tend to extend to nobles.

Of course it was unarguable that at least in terms of social trend Tang was more open than later dynasties. but how much of that is really "rights" should be examained closely. As sometimes it is just the reflection of social realties from nomadic lifestyles rather than real way of thinking.

BTW: Neo Confucism's real spread was ironically during the Mongol dynasty of Yuan, it started in the Song dynasty but was not really influencial (or at least far more moderate). the Yuan and followed by the Ming put down a much more hardline version of it.

Edit: forgot to add: Eunich aren't advisors, they are common male court servents, although their close contact with the royals often increased their influence greatly. it was usually not a good thing. (think about it, how would u feel if the President's butler or house maid gave him advice on military and national policies.... )

[Koolasuchus]

Wu Zetian was the first and only women emperor but she's not the first women to officially rule the empire (as compare with ruling the empire from behind the silk curtain). Empress Lu reigned for 8 years during the early periods of Han dynasty.

Tang women "open-ness" was the result of the influence of the western "barbarians" and Buddhist art. It was also because during Tang's time China was hot as hell. There were bamboos growing as far north as Louyang! And bamboos can only grow in hot and humit climates.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Ha, people think that Song is responsible for women's declining status, in fact Women in Northern Song are probably even more liberal than those during earlier dynasties, just look at all the famous female poets and their short poems(Ci not Shi). As well as Women warriors such as the Yang family. Women's status haven't realy decline until the last days of Southern Song and Yuan. It only reached its worst during the middle of Ming. Before only the nobles had bond feet. It soon spread to many wealthy peasants as well. Even when Hong Wu got on the throne, Empress Ma did not have bound feet(because she was a peasant), when a large family made a joke of women who did not have bond feets, Hong Wu thought that as an insult to his wife and had the entire family of several hundred executed.

[TMPikachu]

How do barbarians and buddhism promote women's status?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

They don't, Buddhist say that women are an inferior reincarnation than men and if they are good, women could become men in their next life. The nomad women are more "free" because of the importance of women in their society which rely a large part on women to care the home and even defending it when necessary.

[Koolasuchus]

TMPikachu, on Jan 31 2005, 02:00 AM, said:

How do barbarians and buddhism promote women's status?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By "open-ness" I was refering to the way the women were dressed, not to their social status.

The Buddhist arts depicts have half naked women all the time, and when the religion becomes mainstream the people began try to immulate these heavenly beings.

[Yun]

Not true - the power of Chinese ethics was greater than the power of Buddhist art. Studies of the transmission of Buddhist art from Central Asia into China show that the degree of nakedness for the women (or rather apsara fairies - "feitian") in the murals and statues decreased steadily the closer one got to China. By the time they got to Dunhuang, they were fully clothed.