[青文景武剑]

more detail

[Liu Bei]

cool poem, is it by Mao Zedong?

[Yun]

More likely Mao Zonggang, who edited a Qing version of the Sanguo Yanyi, on which most editions are based today.

[Yun]

It may interest you to know that Luo Guanzhong did not invent the character Diaochan. He actually borrowed her from Yuan operas and also the "Sanguozhi Pinghua", an earlier novelistic version of the Three Kingdoms epic. In the opera, Diaochan was originally named Ren Hongchang, and was the daughter of Ren Ang from Mu'er Village in Xinzhou. She became a palace maid in the Han court, handling the sable ('diaochan') headdresses of the courtiers, hence her nickname of Diaochan. Han Lingdi gave her to Ding Yuan, who then gave her to Lu Bu as a wife. Later, Lu Bu and Diaochan were separated during the Yellow Turban rebellion, and Diaochan ended up as an adopted daughter of Wang Yun. In the "Sanguozhi Pinghua", it's simpler - 'Ren Diaochan' was the wife of Lu Bu, but they got separated at Lintao and she wound up in Wang Yun's household.

In both versions, Wang Yun finds out about this background from Diaochan, and then for the sake of overthrowing Dong Zhuo, reunites Lu Bu and Diaochan, only to then offer her up to Dong Zhuo as a concubine. This sets Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo against each other, and Lu Bu kills Dong Zhuo with a sword.

It would seem that the Yuan opera version is the only basis for the 'research' claimed by Meng Fanren in the earlier posted article regarding the true origins of Diaochan.

[Iamnick]

Wow... this is really interesting. The aspect about the graves would make this seem 100%, but there are no names on them anymore right? And the "tablets" have since disappeared... so that makes it seem very likely to be a hoax, unless i missed something?
Thank you very much for taking the time to translate this.

[Sephodwyrm]

Diao Chan.
Diao - the mink
Chan - the cicada

The Diao Chan headdress was properly first worn by the Hu people who had mink fur or tail hanging down their hats that keep their heads warm in the harsh northern weather. King Wuling of Zhao adopted these as central plains headdress (after meeting a lot of resistance). It eventually became fashionable, and the 2 hanging cicadas were cute...I guess...

Do you guys know that Diao Chan is a playable character in the game Knights of Valor 1 and 2? She wears her underwear and goes around slicing people with 2 blades...

[Nerva]

Actually, I believe that Diao Chan really exists. I read the posts of others, and the article, and the grave convinced me that Diao Chan may be real. Although, the words passed down for thousands of years may change its meaning completely.

[Zhao Yun '87]

Where's your proof that the sworn brotherhood of Liu Bei, Zhang Fei, and Guan Yu was completely fabricated?

How can you say it seems the only research he did was from a play? Just because it doesn't go into detail about his methods? Maybe, lets think about this one for once instead of saying everything in literary arts is immediately fiction, the Yuan play based itself off of history and certain parts of it were found to be true by the researcher.

Also, this article mentions 2 or 3 things from the SGZ that are not in the SGz at Kongmingsarchives.net. does this mean that KMA aren't complete SGZ translations?

This post has been edited by Zhao Yun '87: 31 October 2005 - 11:05 AM

[Iamnick]

that is correct. KMA are not usually full or complete. There may be exceptions, and translating is always tricky anyways. A "complete" translation may not be able to convay a certain aspect because of the language barrier no matter how "full" it is.
There is no proof that the brotherhood was completely fabricated, but then again, there is also no proof that Liu Bei truely exsited, nor that the world is round. 0_0
At least, I have no direct way to prove it myself, and I doubt anyone here can go into space themselves and see it. Photos can be forged, and documents can be altered. So really, pointing out that there isn't something that says "No sworn borthers", is kinda silly.
You have to go off of the words of others, and since there isn't anyone that ever said historically there was a sworn brotherhood, there is no reason to assume it. I ask, where is your proof that it did exist? The novel is even titled "Romance", so it cannot be used as a credible source without other sources to back it up.

This post has been edited by Iamnick: 31 October 2005 - 01:36 PM

[Zhao Yun '87]

Iamnick, on Oct 31 2005, 01:32 PM, said:

that is correct. KMA are not usually full or complete. There may be exceptions, and translating is always tricky anyways. A "complete" translation may not be able to convay a certain aspect because of the language barrier no matter how "full" it is.
There is no proof that the brotherhood was completely fabricated, but then again, there is also no proof that Liu Bei truely exsited, nor that the world is round. 0_0
At least, I have no direct way to prove it myself, and I doubt anyone here can go into space themselves and see it. Photos can be forged, and documents can be altered. So really, pointing out that there isn't something that says "No sworn borthers", is kinda silly.
You have to go off of the words of others, and since there isn't anyone that ever said historically there was a sworn brotherhood, there is no reason to assume it. I ask, where is your proof that it did exist? The novel is even titled "Romance", so it cannot be used as a credible source without other sources to back it up.

Well let's see. The only thing commenting on it is the novel...nothing else says it was true or wasn't.....leaving one source that says it was...lets use a little logic shall we?

yeah yeah yeah we all have heard it a thousand times the novel isn't completely historically accurate. Well would you look at that, it is a novel. Just because some people online say no no don't use a single thing from the novel doesn't mean you should listen to them. It's still more correct than fabrication.

...Can't prove the world is round...you can go around it... go by your logic, pointing out there isn't anything that says "Sworn Brothers" is silly. How is pointing out that there isn't any evidence against it silly? See if you think this is silly: A courtroom. A man is accused of a murder he didn't do. They ask for the prosecutor's evidence. "Oh we don't have any."

Defence, "Well they don't have any evidence so how can you know he did it."

Prosecutor, "I'd like to point out how silly it is that they think he didn't do it because we don't have evidence."

Tell me you wouldn't think that he was the worst lawyer in history. But let's assume you're right. I'm now gonna make my list of claims. Cao Cao was from Krypton and was secretely superman of the 3rd century. Sun Quan was a Roman in disguise conquering for Rome's glory. Liu Bei was an alien who sought peace with earth that's why noone liked him. Lu Bu was a demigod untouchable except by strangulation.

Now, I don't want to hear anyone questioning my claims just because their isn't any evidence for them.

[Yun]

Quote

go by your logic, pointing out there isn't anything that says "Sworn Brothers" is silly. How is pointing out that there isn't any evidence against it silly? See if you think this is silly: A courtroom. A man is accused of a murder he didn't do. They ask for the prosecutor's evidence. "Oh we don't have any."

Defence, "Well they don't have any evidence so how can you know he did it."

Prosecutor, "I'd like to point out how silly it is that they think he didn't do it because we don't have evidence."

I think you have misunderstood the logic. Iamnick was essentially saying that it is not enough to say something actually happened by arguing that there is no proof that it didn't. To borrow your courtroom analogy, it would be like the prosecution charging the accused simply because he has no evidence to support his alibi. The prosecution also needs evidence of its own to make its case. In the case of the sworn brotherhood, the 3rd-century historical source (Sanguo Zhi) only says that they "loved each other like brothers". The Ming fictional source (which is partly based on the historical source) contains a story of sworn brotherhood that is known from the mid-Yuan (1,000 years later than the Sanguo Zhi), but not in sources before that. The novel is also known for containing numerous distortions of the historical source and also borrowings from folk operas that basically made up their stories (just read some of these operas and you'll see what I mean), so it is not considered as a reliable witness on its own. Furthermore, social history research shows that the practice of sworn brotherhood only became common in the Yuan dynasty.

Thus while it is possible that the sworn brotherhood story actually took place, due to lack of conclusive evidence to the contrary, in historical research one has to look to probability (it is likely to have happened, based on the evidence) rather than possibility (it may have happened, based on the lack of contrary evidence). The Yuan and Ming novels and operas are simply unsuitable bases for establishing probability, and so until we can find older evidence, we have to take it that the novel did not have a credible historical source for its sworn brotherhood story - and the same goes for the Diaochan story.

Perhaps I can make another analogy with the Iraq war. The Bush administration could not say that it is possible that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, because there is no evidence to the contrary, therefore let's invade. They had to say that they have evidence that there are indeed weapons of mass destruction there, because the burden of proof was on them. After invading, they found that the sources of their evidence were unreliable (if they didn't make up the evidence in the first place). This shows how important a credible source is, and the Sanguo Zhi is the oldest and most credible source we have for now, while the RTK gives us many reasons to doubt its credibility in comparison. Since one cannot invade the past to make absolutely sure, we may never be absolutely sure what really happened. But to maintain that something in a legend did happen because there is no proof that it did not, is not History.

[Iamnick]

thanks Yun. THat is what I was trying to get across, though having reread it the next morning, I see that I didn't convey it as obviously or as well as I thought I had. Oh well. Next time, I'll try to reply when I'm not so tired.

Getting back onto topic, even with this new "discovery", Diao Chan is still more or less accepted as having not existed, correct?

[Zhen Ji]

I wish I could Read Chines I think The Chines are Fasanating
(i cant even spell my own languege HA HA HA)

[Zhen Ji]

Diao Chan (Sable Cicada)
貂嬋
(AD 161/9–???)
Sanguo yanyi Officer Biography
Author Notes in Blue
Authored by Morgan Evans



Diao Chan was born around AD 169 (1) and raised in the capital city Luoyang where she served as a handmaiden, singer and dancer in the palace of the Interior Minister Wang Yun. She was very close to Wang Yun and their relationship was more like that of a daughter with a father than servant and master. In AD 190 Dong Zhuo deposed the ruling Emperor and empowered a new Emperor who he controlled. Dong Zhuo freely used and abused his power, unopposed by the ministers of the capital as they all feared him and his adopted son Lü Bu. Due to an alliance against him, Dong Zhuo would even relocate the capital from Luoyang to Chang’an forcing all the residents to move with it. When the alliance failed, there was no one left to stand against Dong Zhuo and his abuses of power became even worse than before. However, Wang Yun could not stand the situation anymore and he came up with a plan to kill Dong Zhuo: he would use Diao Chan to turn Lü Bu against Dong Zhuo.

1: Sources vary, some say AD 161 while others say AD 169.
Wang Yun immediately put his plan into motion by inviting Lü Bu to his palace where he introduced Diao Chan and offered her hand in marriage to Lü Bu. Lü Bu was enthralled by Diao Chan’s beauty and could not take his eyes off her, so he accepted Wang Yun’s offer without a second thought. However a few days later, Wang Yun invited Dong Zhuo to his home for a banquet, during which Diao Chan danced and sung for him. Dong Zhuo was enchanted with her just as Lü Bu had been and he too accepted when Wang Yun offered her to him as a concubine. Dong Zhuo took Diao Chan with him and it was not long before word got to Lü Bu who confronted Wang Yun. Wang Yun lied to Lü Bu, telling him that Dong Zhuo was fully aware of the previous arrangement but he had taken Diao Chan anyway. The next morning Lü Bu went to the palace, asking the servants about Diao Chan and he was not happy to find that she had slept with Dong Zhuo in his bedroom. Diao Chan had just risen when she saw the shadow of Lü Bu who was sneaking around outside the window. She pretended to cry to give Lü Bu the impression that she was deeply saddened by her circumstances. Lü Bu went back into the palace where he met with Dong Zhuo. Diao Chan stood behind a curtain watching them and every so often she would peek around the curtain to look lovingly at Lü Bu. Dong Zhuo eventually noticed Lü Bu staring at Diao Chan, became suspicious and dismissed him.

Diao Chan satisfied all of Dong Zhuo’s needs so that he became completely devoted to her and soon began to ignore the affairs of state in order to spend time with her. When Dong Zhuo fell ill, Diao Chan sat vigilantly by his side soothing him. Hearing of Dong Zhuo’s illness, Lü Bu came to visit him but Dong Zhuo was asleep when he arrived so Diao Chan took advantage of the situation. She pointed to her heart with one hand and with the other pointed to Dong Zhuo and began to weep, breaking Lü Bu’s heart. Dong Zhuo awoke to see Lü Bu again staring at Diao Chan and became angry, he had Lü Bu ejected from the palace and banned him from returning. Dong Zhuo’s advisor Li Ru would convince him to make amends with Lü Bu for the sake of peace but Lü Bu still thought of the woman who he considered to be rightfully his.

One day while Dong Zhuo met with the Emperor, Lü Bu left his side and went to find Diao Chan. He tied Red Hare outside the palace and carrying his halberd, went inside. Diao Chan met him in the garden and burst into tears crying “Though I am not the Minister’s real daughter, he has treated me as his own child. The desire of my life was fulfilled when he promised me to you. But to think of the wickedness of the Prime Minister, stealing my poor self as he did. I suffered so much. I longed to die, but I had not told you the real truth so I lived on, bearing my shame as best as I could. Now that I have seen you, I can end it all. My poor sullied body is no longer fit to serve a hero. I can die before your eyes and so prove how true I am!” She then motioned that she would throw herself into the pond below but Lü Bu grabbed her and held her close. Lü Bu began to cry as he finally knew that Diao Chan shared his feelings, so she wrapped her arms around him and begged him to rescue her. He told her that he would need time to think as he knew that he could not simply take her away from his adopted father, but she pressed him by expressing her confusion that a formidable warrior such as Lü Bu would be ruled by someone else. This outburst shamed Lü Bu, he held her close, soothed her and could not bear to let her go. However, Dong Zhuo had noticed Lü Bu’s absence and soon became suspicious so he made his way quickly to the palace where he found Red Hare tied outside. Storming into the grounds, he found the two lovers locked in an embrace but Lü Bu saw him and ran away, abandoning his halberd in the process. Dong Zhuo grabbed the halberd and gave chase but when he could not catch up to Lü Bu he threw the halberd but missed his target. Li Ru stopped Dong Zhuo, calmed him down and begged him to give Diao Chan to Lü Bu in order to end the strife between the two of them. Dong Zhuo summoned Diao Chan and asked for her account of what had happened in the garden, but she told a very different story. She told him that Lü Bu had come armed to the palace and that she had been afraid that he would force her to do his will so she had tried to leap into the pond but Lü Bu had caught her. She thanked Dong Zhuo for saving her, but he suggested sending her to Lü Bu as a peace offering. Diao Chan protested, wept and threatened to kill herself rather than serve an underling such as Lü Bu. Satisfied with her response, Dong Zhuo placated her and assured her that he cared too much to give her away. Diao Chan confided in him that she was scared of Lü Bu and wanted the two of them to move to Dong Zhuo's city of Meiwo so that they could be far away from Lü Bu. When Dong Zhuo informed Li Ru that he had decided to keep Diao Chan and that they would be leaving for Meiwo the next day, Li Ru exclaimed as he left the palace, “We are dead men, slain by the hand of this girl.”

As they set out to Meiwo, Diao Chan saw Lü Bu in the crowd so she looked to the ground and looked sad. Lü Bu confided his sadness in Wang Yun who became angry, shouting that people would laugh at them as Dong Zhuo had stolen Diao Chan away from both of them while they stood idly by. Lü Bu became angry and swore to kill Dong Zhuo if it were not for the punishment he would no doubt receive. Wang Yun stirred matters further by assuring Lü Bu that killing Dong Zhuo would lead to the restoring of the Han empire and that there would be no repercussions for the killing of a rebel. Wang Yun with two colleagues worked out the details and the next day a messenger arrived at Meiwo to inform Dong Zhuo that the Emperor would be abdicating all power to him. Dong Zhuo was greatly pleased, so he arranged for four generals, Guo Si, Li Jue, Fan Chou and Zhang Ji to guard the city and then prepared to return to the capital. Before he set out, Dong Zhuo promised Diao Chan that she would be named ‘Lady of the Palace’ and while she thanked him, she secretly was overjoyed as she knew that this was the culmination of Wang Yun’s plan and that Dong Zhuo was walking into a trap. As he arrived at the capital for the ceremony, Dong Zhuo was ambushed and slain by Lü Bu who then gathered an army of 50,000 soldiers ready to assault Meiwo. When news reached Meiwo of Dong Zhuo’s demise and of the oncoming army, the four generals protecting the city fled to Liangzhou. Lü Bu’s first act when his army reached Meiwo was to find Diao Chan and with that done, his troops killed every member of Dong Zhuo’s family.

However, the four exiled generals were determined to avenge Dong Zhuo so they amassed an army and marched towards Chang’an. On their way there they fell in with Dong Zhuo's son-in-law Niu Fu and his army. Lü Bu went out to oppose the rebels but they were well prepared for him, forcing him to retreat to the capital. When he got back to Chang’an, the city was already under siege by the rebels. Lü Bu shouted over the wall begging Wang Yun to escape with him, but Wang Yun was determined to fight to the end. Lü Bu had no choice but to escape to Yuan Shao leaving his family, Diao Chan and Wang Yun behind. When the rebels entered the city they sought out Wang Yun and for his role in killing Dong Zhuo, they executed him. Eventually Diao Chan would be reunited with Lü Bu and the two would move from province to province together until they reached Xia Pi where Lü Bu would meet his end at the hands of Cao Cao.

[Iamnick]

Hey Zhen Ji, you mentioned that you didn't know that much about the history, so I thought I would give you some help figureing out the differences.
At Kongming, there are 3 types of bios. One is the SGZ bios, which are more or less historically accurite. Then, there are the SGYY bios, which are based off of the Novel: "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" which is not true to history. I believe that this is one of those bios. Then there is a 3rd type, the comprehinsive bios, also are not very reliable, as they tend to accept many falsehoods into them. I am not sure of the source that they use for them, but the Sima Yi bio seems entirely taken from the novel.
Since Diao Chan is one of your favorites, I thought I would also let you know that unfortuanitly, there is no record of her ever existing. However, there is a record of Lu Bu sleeping with one of Dong zhuo's concubines. Lu Bu was afraid that Dong would find out, but apperently he never did. This is the only historical reference to a woman such as Diao Chan in history. It is possible that she may have existed in some way or another, but there is just no reliable source claiming it.

Hope that helps.