[asiaconqueror]

Why did the Han Empire become divided into 3 kingdoms ? Wasn't the Han dynasty strong enough?

[General_Zhaoyun]

asiaconqueror, on May 26 2004, 11:59 PM, said:

Why did the Han Empire become divided into 3 kingdoms ? Wasn't the Han dynasty strong enough?

During the late Han dynasty, the chinese court became monopolized by the eunuch, who were corrupted. The Han emperor did not have any real power in controlling the affairs of the empire. In fact, many were like puppets. Corruption, high tax imposed that put burden on the peasants worsen the decline of the han dynasty. In fact, the burden became so great that this led to the famous "Yellow turban " rebellion that shook the foundation of the eastern-han dynasty to almost its collapse.

After putting down the rebellion, the military power gradually fell into the hand of a lord by the name of Dong Zuo, who monopolized the chinese court. During the times of late han dynasty, there were many feudal lords (Zhuhou) that had their own armies. Because they were 'jealous' of Dong Zuo controlling the court, they rallied a joint-campaign to rid of Dong Zuo. China became embroiled in a series of warfare in an attempt to vie for power and control and the power became decentralised after Dong Zuo became killed by Lu Bu. Eventually, a series of annexation leads to the formation of 3 kingdoms.

[Book of Faith]

To be frank, this is just the number of fuedal lords that had strong enough armies to survive. In fact, this is how it has always been in Chinese History(i.e. Warring States Period, Yuan Wars, etc.)

[barbarian]

It seems to be a history pattern in chinese history 'Empire united for a long time will become divided. Empire divided for a long time will become unified".

Unification and Disunion has been a pattern seen in chinese history.. :huh:

[chinesewarrior]

There had been many times when China was divided.

For instance during Eastern Zhou dynasty where China was divided into 100 of states (later.. Spring Autumn Period and Warring states).

Another period of disunion is after the collapse of Han dynasty, during the 3 kingdoms period, 16 kingdoms period, North-South dynasty etc.

After the collapse of Tang dynasty, there was also a period of disunion known as the 5 dynasties...during the Song and Yuan wars etc.

[Tyler]

General_Zhaoyun, on May 27 2004, 03:29 AM, said:

In fact, the burden became so great that this led to the famous "Yellow turban " rebellion that shook the foundation of the eastern-han dynasty to almost its collapse.

After putting down the rebellion, the military power gradually fell into the hand of a lord by the name of Dong Zuo

Dong Zuo became killed by Lu Bu

Well the Yellow Turban rebellion was not that significant. It was a small rebellion in the north, that was brought down in a year. It merely helped the coruption go further.

As for Dong Zhou the power did not fall into his hands he put it in his hands. Dong Zhou took control of the capital and gained power.

Lu Bu the man who killed Dong Zhou was Dong Zhou's own adopted son. In the novel they say he killed him over a serving girl but there is no historical evidence to support this.

Cao Cao a warlord who participated in the coalition took Emperor Xian under his care (control) and used him as a puppet. When He died his son Cao Pi forced the emperor to secede the imperial tittle to himself, it was then that the Han Truly fell.





Here is a funny comic if you want to learn more about the era but please not this is intended to be a funny comic and not a historical one. So do not beleave most of what you here, but do read it San Comic

[General_Zhaoyun]

"Liu Ce" said:

Lu Bu the man who killed Dong Zhou was Dong Zhou's own adopted son. In the novel they say he killed him over a serving girl but there is no historical evidence to support this.

That's right. I remember from R3K novel that mentioned the girl was called "Diao Chan", who was one of the 4 greatest beauties in Chinese history. According to the novel, Wang Yun made full use "Diao Chan" to mesmerize both Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu. His motive was to rid Dong Zhuo by scoring conflict between Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu. He recommended Diao Chan to Dong Zhuo to be his concubine. But Lu Bu was also attracted to Diao Chan and was jealous of this, so he liased with Wang Yun and killed Dong Zhuo over the girl. This was called "Lian Huan" (simultaneous) trick/strategy in R3K.

I don't know whether this was historically true, but according to my book on 3 kingdoms history, it mentioned that in 192 AD, Dong Zhuo was heading to the palace in a carriage. He ordered Lu Bu to guard the front as well as the rear. AS soon as Dong Zhuo entered Beiye Gate, a warrior assigned by Wang Yun thrust him with a halberd. Dong Zhuo called out to Lu Bu to save him, but Lu Bu instead killed him with a spear.

It can be said that Wang Yun and Lu Bu were the person who kill Dong Zhuo.

[Tyler]

I think it was Lu Bu's halberd that killed him, if it's in your book what chapeter is it in?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Liu Ce, on May 30 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

I think it was Lu Bu's halberd that killed him, if it's in your book what chapeter is it in?

I think, it's under chapter 2 (I'm referring to the chinese simplified version of R3K I'm reading) called "Lian Huan" (simultaneous) strategy. It's different chapter from the real R3K novel (in classical chinese).

If you're referring to the real R3K novel, it should be under "Chapter 8".
Note: I've got the real R3K novel (in classical chinese), but I've having hard time reading them, as I'm not good in classical chinese.

[Chinaconqueror]

asiaconqueror, on May 26 2004, 03:59 PM, said:

Why did the Han Empire become divided into 3 kingdoms ? Wasn't the Han dynasty strong enough?

The han dynasty was weak enough. Virtually the Yellow turban had weakened it to the point of collapse.

During the feudal lord battles, each feudal lord vive for the control of China. Actually, Cao Cao had the upper hand. He unified the whole of north China, and was almost capable of conquering Wu and Shu, had it not been Zhugeliang's entry into the scene. Zhugeliang's wisdom led him to create a joint alliance between Shu and Wu, and fight against Wei . In the battle of CiBi, a joint force of Shu and Wu successfully defeated Wei and from then onwards, Cao Cao did not have much power to swiftly conquer Shu and Wu. The battle of CiBi was what cause the Han Empire to be divided into 3 kingdoms.

[Tyler]

Even during the batte of Chi Bi (Red Cliff) the Han was still the Empire. Only did the kingdoms gain power and fight at this time the Han dynasty ended when Cao Cao's son Cao Pi made the Emperor give his rank and tittle to him.

[General_Zhaoyun]

It's interesting that Liu Bei (Emperor of Shu) sought to revive the han dynasty, because his surname is "Liu" (same as that for the Han monarchy), which he claimed to be the relative of Han emperor. So in actual fact, the kingdom of his was at first called "Shu Han"..

[Tyler]

Yeah thats the officail name. In my tittle at 3K Era it says that. If anyone has played the ROTK video games you will now who much history they cahng or make up.

[Yun]

Actually, "Three Kingdoms" is not an accurate term, since the rulers of all three adopted the title of Emperor. "Three States" is perhaps better, but it doesn't sound as nice. Similarly, not all the rulers of the so-called "16 Kingdoms" or "10 Kingdoms" regarded themselves as kings. Some went only as far as Duke or Prince, others went all the way to Emperor. Only those who gave themselves the title of Tianwang (Heavenly King), like Shi Hu and Fu Jian, can be regarded as "Kings".

The confusion arises from the fact that in Chinese history, "wang" (which we now mostly translate as King) usually meant Prince, except maybe in the case of the Warring States. "Wang Guo" did not mean Kingdom, but Princedom or Principality. Even "Guo" can mean anything from Empire to Dukedom.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Yun, on May 31 2004, 10:19 AM, said:

Actually, "Three Kingdoms" is not an accurate term, since the rulers of all three adopted the title of Emperor. "Three States" is perhaps better, but it doesn't sound as nice. Similarly, not all the rulers of the so-called "16 Kingdoms" or "10 Kingdoms" regarded themselves as kings. Some went only as far as Duke or Prince, others went all the way to Emperor. Only those who gave themselves the title of Tianwang (Heavenly King), like Shi Hu and Fu Jian, can be regarded as "Kings".

The confusion arises from the fact that in Chinese history, "wang" (which we now mostly translate as King) usually meant Prince, except maybe in the case of the Warring States. "Wang Guo" did not mean Kingdom, but Princedom or Principality. Even "Guo" can mean anything from Empire to Dukedom.

I guess you're right..Yun. 3 kingdoms didn't really fit with the chinese convention, because each kingdom has an "emperor" which by no means should be called "state" or "empire".

I'll just sum up (in terms of chinese history):

Wang - king or prince
Di - Emperor
Gong - Duke