[deathdoom56]

Book of Faith, on Jun 8 2004, 06:29 PM, said:

Yun, on Jun 8 2004, 03:23 PM, said:

No emperor? Cao Cao, the Prince of Wei, continued to acknowledge the last Han emperor as his sovereign until he died - otherwise he would not have held concurrently the post of Prime Minister.

When China broke into Three Kingdoms, there was no more Han Dynasty.

No now that i looked it up apparently Cao Cao declared himself to be king of wei. Wu and Shu did more or less exist but the Han wasnt destroyed. The Han court was disbanded by Cao Cao's son

[Yun]

OK, here's the sequence of events, which is actually also made clear in the novel:

1. Cao Cao brought the last Han emperor Liu Xie, then only a child, to his power base at Ye after the latter fled from Luoyang during the civil wars. He then used the emperor as a puppet and had himself appointed Prime Minister, leading campaigns against other warlords in the emperor's name.

2. When Cao Cao declared Liu Bei and Sun Quan to be rebels, they asserted that they were actually fighting to free the emperor from Cao Cao's control. Therefore neither of them declared himself emperor while Liu Xie was still on the throne.

3. Cao Cao was enfeoffed as Duke of Wei by the emperor, and this was later raised one rank to Prince of Wei (the highest aristocratic rank). After Cao Cao died in 220, Cao Pi dethroned Liu Xie and made himself emperor with Wei as the name of the dynasty.

4. Liu Bei then declared himself the next legitimate Han emperor, while Sun Quan declared himself the emperor of Wu. This is the official end of the Han dynasty and beginning of the "Three Kingdoms" in all Chinese history books.

5. Sun Quan also accepted an enfeoffment as "Prince of Wu" from the Wei dynasty, for the sake of maintaining good relations. The ambiguity of the "wang" title was useful here because it could be interpreted as "King of Wu", since Sun Quan actually ruled a large state rather than a small princedom.

[Yun]

Regarding Diao Chan, she is a fictional character. The Sanguo Zhi only states that Lu Bu had an affair with one of Dong Zhuo's maids, and betrayed him out of fear that he would find out. The "Four Great Beauties" is a well-known theme in Chinese popular culture, but it really has no credibility. There are lots of other beautiful women in Chinese history, but they have just not been mythologised to the extent of Xishi, Wang Qiang (Zhaojun), Diao Chan, and Yang Yuhuan (Guifei).

[Book of Faith]

Yun, on Jun 9 2004, 01:34 PM, said:

OK, here's the sequence of events, which is actually also made clear in the novel:

1. Cao Cao brought the last Han emperor Liu Xie, then only a child, to his power base at Ye after the latter fled from Luoyang during the civil wars. He then used the emperor as a puppet and had himself appointed Prime Minister, leading campaigns against other warlords in the emperor's name.

2. When Cao Cao declared Liu Bei and Sun Quan to be rebels, they asserted that they were actually fighting to free the emperor from Cao Cao's control. Therefore neither of them declared himself emperor while Liu Xie was still on the throne.

3. Cao Cao was enfeoffed as Duke of Wei by the emperor, and this was later raised one rank to Prince of Wei (the highest aristocratic rank). After Cao Cao died in 220, Cao Pi dethroned Liu Xie and made himself emperor with Wei as the name of the dynasty.

4. Liu Bei then declared himself the next legitimate Han emperor, while Sun Quan declared himself the emperor of Wu. This is the official end of the Han dynasty and beginning of the "Three Kingdoms" in all Chinese history books.

5. Sun Quan also accepted an enfeoffment as "Prince of Wu" from the Wei dynasty, for the sake of maintaining good relations. The ambiguity of the "wang" title was useful here because it could be interpreted as "King of Wu", since Sun Quan actually ruled a large state rather than a small princedom.

No man, he became King of Wei:


Taken from : http://www.kongming....vel/chronology/

Quote

AD 168
Death of Emperor Huan (Liu Zhi), ascension of Emperor Ling (Liu Hong)

AD 184
Yellow Scarves uprising led by Zhang Jiao begins.

AD 188
Conflict between Empress He and Empress Dong over the succession of Emperor Ling.

AD 189
Death of Emperor Ling (May 13th), reign of Emperor Shao (Liu Bian) begins (May 15th), Yuan Wei (uncle of Yuan Shao) appointed as Imperial Guardian, He Jin and Yuan Shao defend the Han Sovereignty against the Ten Regular Attendants. Dong Zhuo is summoned to the capital of Luo Yang. Dong Zhuo deposes Emperor Shao and enthrones Emperor Xian (Liu Xie) on September 28th. Yuan Shao and Cao Cao oppose Dong Zhuo.

AD 190
Yuan Shao forms the coalition against Dong Zhuo. Dong Zhuo leaves and burns the Capital Luo Yang and moves to Chang An. Sun Jian finds the Imperial Jade Seal in the burned down Luo Yang.

AD 191
Yuan Shao battles Gongsun Zan and takes control of the provinces northeast of the Yellow River. Sun Jian and Liu Biao wage war in Jing Zhou.

AD 192
Lü Bu kills Dong Zhuo. Cao Cao becomes protector of Yan Zhou and receives the surrender of the Yellow Scarves in Qing Zhou.

AD 194
Liu Bei aids Kong Rong against a Yellow Scarves attack. Liu Bei assumes control of Xu Zhou.

AD 195
Dong Zhuo’s generals revolt, Emperor Xian is moved from Chang An and requests aid from Cao Cao.

AD 196
Cao Cao brings the Emperor to Xu Chang in October.

AD 197
Lü Bu attacks Liu Bei; Liu Bei takes refuge with Cao Cao. Yuan Shu declares himself Emperor.

AD 198
Cao Cao battles Yuan Shao and Zhang Xiu.

AD 199
Cao Cao has Lü Bu executed. Emperor Xian gives Dong Cheng a secret edict. Yuan Shu dies.

AD 200
Dong Cheng and his household are executed by Cao Cao. Cao Cao attacks Liu Bei. Liu Bei takes refuge with Yuan Shao. Cao Cao captures Guan Yu. Sun Ce dies and Sun Quan accepts Han title. Yuan Shao defeated at Guan Du by Cao Cao.

AD 201
Yuan Shao flees to Ji Zhou, Liu Bei finds refuge with Liu Biao in Jing Zhou.

AD 202/4
Yuan Shao dies, Cao Cao attacks Yuan Shao’s sons and conquers the city of Ye.

AD 205/8
Yuan Shao’s sons flee to the Wu Huan people. Cao Cao defeats the Wu Huan with Gou Jia’s help and returns to Ye.

AD 207/8
Conflict between Liu Bei and Liu Biao’s wife Lady Cai. Liu Bei meets Shan Fu in Xin Ye. Cao Cao prepares to attack Jing Zhou. Shan Fu recommends Zhuge Liang to Liu Bei, Liu Bei seeks out Zhuge Liang. Sun Quan attacks Jing Zhou. Conflict between Liu Biao’s sons, Liu Qi and Liu Zhong. Zhuge Liang’s first battle. Lady Cai plans to cede Jing Zhou to Cao Cao. Liu Bei flees to Xia Kou, Liu Biao dies. Lu Su travels to Xia Kou to seek Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang goes to Jiang Dong to meet with Zhou Yu to arrange an alliance against Cao Cao. In the Battle of Chi Bi, Sun Quan and Liu Bei score a great victory against Cao Cao.

AD 209/10
Liu Bei occupies Jiang Ling and Gong An, Liu Qi dies. Liu Bei occupies southern Jing Zhou. Liu Bei marries Sun Quan’s sister Sun Ren. Lu Su demands the return of Jing Zhou to Sun Quan. Liu Bei leaves Jiang Dong with Sun Ren.

AD 211
Zhou Yu dies. Cao Cao kills Ma Teng and threatens Han Zhong. Han Zhong’s ruler, Zhang Lu, threatens the lands of Ba-Shu. Ba-Shu ruler Liu Zhang sends Zhang Song to Cao Cao for help. Zhang Song visits Liu Bei.

AD 212
Liu Bei marches into Ba-Shu, Zhuge Liang governs Jing Zhou.

AD 212-13
Cao Cao invades Jiang Dong and assumes the Nine Dignities of a patriarchal lord. Liu Bei enters Ba-Shu.

AD 214
Zhuge Liang goes to Ba-Shu; Guan Yu governs Jing Zhou. Liu Bei takes control of Ba-Shu.

AD 215
Sun Quan demands the return of Jing Zhou. Cao Cao conquers Han Zhong, Zhang Lu surrenders.

AD 216
Cao Cao becomes King of Wei.

AD 217
Cao Cao attacks Sun Quan.

AD 218
Revolt against Cao Cao is crushed in XU Chang. Huang Zhong kills Xiahou Yuan, endangering Cao Cao’s control of Han Zhong.

AD 219
Cao Cao withdraws from Han Zhong to Chang An. Liu Bei proclaims himself King of Han Zhong. Guan Yu takes Xiang Yang and Fan, Sun Quan takes Jing Zhou. Guan Yu defeated.

AD 220
Lü Meng executes Guan Yu. Cao Cao dies. On November 24th, Emperor Xian abdicates to Cao Pi, who establishes the Wei Dynasty.

AD 221
Liu Bei proclaims himself Emperor of Shu in May and marches against Sun Quan in August. Sun Quan accepts the suzerainty of the Wei Dynasty.

AD 222
Liu Bei suffers a crushing defeat at Yi Ling because of Lu Xun’s brilliant defences. Wei invades Jing Zhou.

AD 223
Liu Bei dies and Liu Shan succeeds him. Sima Yi invades Shu, Zhuge Liang revives the alliance between Shu and Wu against Wei.

AD 224
Cao Pi invades Wu.

AD 225
Zhuge Liang subdues the Nan Man people in the south.

AD 226
Cao Pi dies. Cao Rui succeeds him as Emperor of Wei. Zhuge Liang persuades Liu Shan to wage war against Wei. Sima Yi leads the Wei army against Shu.

AD 228
Meng Da killed, Zhuge Liang launches a northern campaign against Wei.

AD 229
Sun Quan proclaims himself Wu Emperor.

AD 230
Wei commander Cao Zhen’s campaign fails due to heavy rain.

AD 231
Cao Zhen dies; Zhuge Liang is recalled from the field. Zhuge Liang resumes the war against Wei.

AD 234
Zhuge Liang dies at Wu Zhang. Shu armies retreat to Cheng Du. Wei Yan assassinated by Ma Dai.

AD 239
Cao Fang succeeds Cao Rui as Wei Emperor. Cao Zhen’s son Cao Shuang becomes co-regent with Sima Yi. Decade of conflict between Cao Shuang and Sima Yi begins.

AD 249
Cao Shuang is killed; Sima Yi seizes control of the Wei kingdom. Jiang Wei, aided by Xiahou Ba leads a new campaign against Wei.

AD 251/52
Sima Yi dies, Sun Quan dies, war between Wei and Wu.

AD 254
Sima Yi’s son Sima Shi deposes of Cao Fang and enthrones Cao Mao.

AD 255
Commanders Wen Qin and Guanqiu Jian revolt against the coup in Wei. Sima Shi dies and Sima Zhao, his younger brother, takes over control.

AD 257
Sima Zhao defeats his opponents; Shu abandons the war against Wei.

AD 258
Sun Chen deposes Sun Liang, the present Wu Emperor. Sun Xiu assumes power and executes Sun Chen. Wei Commander Deng Ai leads the campaign against Shu.

AD 260
Cao Mao assassinated, Cao Huan assumes the Wei throne. Sima Zhao appointed as Prime Minister.

AD 263
Wei Campaign against Shu threatens Cheng Du.

AD 264
Liu Shan, Emperor of Shu, surrenders to Deng Ai. Sima Zhao marches to Chang An. Sima Zhou names Sima Yan his heir and dies.

AD 265-80
The Sima clan establishes a new dynasty, the Jin. War against Wu. Sun Hao becomes last Emperor of Wu. With Lu Kang’s death, Wu’s last hope dies and Jin conquers the southland. China is reunited under Sima Yan

[deathdoom56]

Yah the title is king

[Tyler]

Look a post above it says King. But I say he mise as well be called Emperor Cao Cao since the Han was merly his puppet.

[Yun]

Read this: http://www.wordiq.co...mperor_of_China

and this: http://www.free-defi...om/Cao-Cao.html

Especially the passage below:

"In 216, Cao Cao was promoted to Prince of Wei.

Cao Cao died in 220 due to a brain tumor. He was posthumously given the title of King of Wei. His eldest surviving son Cao Pi inherited his position as Imperial Secretarist and the title Wei Wang. Within one year Cao Pi seized the imperial throne and proclaimed himself to be the first Emperor of the Wei Dynasty - usually referred as the Kingdom of Wei."

This may sound offensive to some of you, but I'd advise not taking the interpretations in RTK websites as the gospel truth when it comes to real history. Much of the material is written by fans who have never read any Chinese history besides the novel.

It takes a broader understanding of Chinese institutions to know that in the Chinese imperial court, "wang" almost always meant Prince rather than King. Otherwise all the sons of an emperor, enfeoffed as "wang", would have been kings in their own right!

Again, please don't assume that I'm an anti-RTK person... I owe a great debt to that novel for introducing me to Chinese history. But now that I'm a historian-in-training, I can't shirk my responsibility to point out a distortion or misconception when I see it. :unsure:

[thirdgumi]

Quote

The confusion arises from the fact that in Chinese history, "wang" (which we now mostly translate as King) usually meant Prince, except maybe in the case of the Warring States. "Wang Guo" did not mean Kingdom, but Princedom or Principality. Even "Guo" can mean anything from Empire to Dukedom.

Well, Shang Wang (kings of Shang) and Zhou Wang (kings of Zhou) were no doubt kings. Later "Wang" of Warring States period I think they meant also kings, because the marquises of the 7 states wanted to be equal to the king of Zhou.
I'm not sure what later Wang means, but having a king and an emperor doesn't have to mean there are multiple leadership. King is inferior title to emperor, so in theory the emperor got the last word and still the absolute ruler.

[Sephodwyrm]

But in the case of Cao Cao I think the Emperor had completely no say at all. In some circumstances in the Tang dynasty, even eunuchs held larger power than the emperor himself and could kill and reprimand the emperor at will...

[deathdoom56]

Sephodwyrm, on Jun 10 2004, 05:48 AM, said:

But in the case of Cao Cao I think the Emperor had completely no say at all. In some circumstances in the Tang dynasty, even eunuchs held larger power than the emperor himself and could kill and reprimand the emperor at will...

Cao Cao did marry his daughter to the emperour making him far more powerful. Also he was the King of Wei, much of the high ranking spots were occupied by his men and he was extreamly famous

[Yun]

Deathdoom, I'm sure you've noticed how similar Cao Cao's political career is to the later regents and shoguns in Japanese history, especially the Fujiwara and Oda Nobunaga. The difference is that removing the reigning imperial dynasty was not an option in Japan because of its mythological significance. However it's possible that Nobunaga would eventually have tried doing just that if he had lived longer - he certainly showed no interest in taking the title of shogun, which suggests that he would only have been content with the imperial throne.

[Book of Faith]

Actually, the only info you can trust to be 100% true is a .org or .gov site.

[Yun]

BoF, historians never trust any material to be 100% true, that's why they must compare sources. And that's also why they are especially careful about using internet sources because the author's references are usually not given.

A .gov or .org site is likely to contain inaccuracies of another sort - namely, official interpretations of history that include propaganda. If it's a PRC government site, you may well see a Marxist interpretation of the Yellow Turban rebellion, or a nationalist interpretation of the Wu expedition to Taiwan.

The best way to get info with a minimum amount of other people's interpretations and distortions is to read the primary sources themselves. In the case of Chinese history, this isn't foolproof either because many of the original sources no longer exist. Our main source of information is official histories (like the Sanguo Zhi) that have already been subject to analysis and interpretation by the official historian. However, I would still encourage you to learn classical Chinese and try getting your hands on the Sanguo Zhi. It will be difficult but very rewarding :)

[deathdoom56]

Yun, on Jun 10 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

Deathdoom, I'm sure you've noticed how similar Cao Cao's political career is to the later regents and shoguns in Japanese history, especially the Fujiwara and Oda Nobunaga. The difference is that removing the reigning imperial dynasty was not an option in Japan because of its mythological significance. However it's possible that Nobunaga would eventually have tried doing just that if he had lived longer - he certainly showed no interest in taking the title of shogun, which suggests that he would only have been content with the imperial throne.

Wow for the first time someone actually connected the two with Cao Cao.

However you have a few historical inaccuracies. For example the emperour of Han (like all emperours of China and even some of Japan) called themselves the son of heaven. Thus it is also (if using the same argument) not an option in China. Instead when Cao Pi became emperour the Han emperour declared he had lost the favour of heaven and had granted it to the Cao family so its technacly not removing the the dynasty.

Oh by the way Nobunaga was on the way to kyoto to recive the title of Seiitaishogun. In fact some historians say that that was the reason he was assasinated. The former shogun (actually still shogun) Ashikaga Yoshiaki didnt want to lose the title of Shogun so he ordered Akechi to kill him. Not a proved theory though.

[Yun]

Yes, the concept of the Mandate of Heaven applied in China in a different way than it did in Japan. In Japan, the mandate was simply because the emperor was descended from the gods. In China, the mandate was received because of superior moral virtue and could be taken away if that virtue was no longer present in the ruling dynasty. Then it would be not only justified to overthrow the emperor - it would actually be Heaven's will.

Cao Pi started the whole pattern of imperial abdications in Chinese history (although he probably also learned something from Wang Mang), in which the emperor would declare that he had lost the Mandate and offer the throne to the powerful minister or general. The ambitious minister would then refuse the throne three times before accepting, as a sign of his humility. It's a silly charade that was played out again and again at the fall of the Wei, the Eastern Jin, the Liu-Song, the Southern Qi, the Liang, the Chen, the Sui, and the Tang. And it got worse in its hypocrisy, because from the Liu-Song onwards, the usurping emperor would also order the murder of the emperor he had dethroned. So much for superior moral virtue!