[galvatron prime]

General Characteristics of Karma
Written by Thubten Chodron.

http://www.thubtench...rma_25May92.pdf
• Science and Karma
• Karma is Not Retribution
• Everything Comes from the Mind
• Thinking about the General Aspects of Karma
! Karma is definite.
! Results of an action increase.
! If an action is not done, one will not meet with its results.
! Actions don’t go to waste without yielding a result.
• Karma is Not Linear
• Questions and Answers

When we look at our precious opportunity, see how rare it is and how much we can do with it, but that it
won't last forever, then we get a little concerned about what’s going to happen if we continue on with our
same old craziness. We start to look for some guides to show us a positive direction to take in life. Here
we turn to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha for guidance, for refuge. The first teaching that they give us
is the teaching on ‘karma’, or the functioning of cause and effect. It is actually at this point that our
Dharma practice really begins. In other words, it is with the observance of cause and effect that we
begin to practice. Cause and effect permeates everything we do; it permeates all of our daily activities.

Science and Karma
Science investigates cause and effect on a physical plain. You mix certain chemicals together and it
produces a certain result, or you look at certain stars in the sky and you try to trace back their causes.
‘Karma’ is talking about causality on a mental level, and ‘karma’ refers to actions. Karma refers to the
things that we say, do, think and feel, and the karma creates imprints on our mindstreams which then
bring the results in terms of what we experience later on.
With science, you can see or you can try and see causality. However, we can't see electrons and
protons and we can't see individual molecules of things, yet we still believe in how they function. Well,
with karma, we can often see what we do, we can hear what we say, and we recognize what we think
and feel. We can’t see the imprints that are left on our mindstream though. Those aren’t made of atomic
things. We can't measure them. Even if they were, as I said, you wouldn’t be able to see individual
atoms. What I'm getting at is, just because we can't see something, we shouldn’t say it doesn't exist. We
can't see atoms yet we know they exist. Karmic imprints left on our mind from our actions equally exist
even though we can’t see them.

One of my teachers said that we shouldn't be like nomads who don't believe in airplanes simply because
they haven't seen them. There are people who say “I haven't see it, therefore I don’t believe it!” They do
that in terms of airplanes; in terms of people landing on the moon. We look at that and say, “That's
dumb!”, and yet with other things that we haven't been able to see with our eyes, we’re completely
convinced that they don't exist. You see, we are not completely consistent in our way of discriminating
‘existent’ and ‘non-existent’ here. What I'm getting at is we need to have an open mind to recognize how
causality works on the mental plain. It's not something that is atomic which could be measured by
microscopes or telescopes or other measuring instruments.

Karma is Not Retribution
It is very important when we talk about karma, to understand that it is quite different from the Judeo-
Christian idea of retribution. I have found this to be a very common misconception. We may be listening
to teachings on karma but we hear them through Christian ears, and we get completely confused. We
are not hearing what the Buddha said, we are hearing what we were told when we were five years old in
Sunday school. It is important that as we listen to this, to try and listen with a fresh attitude. That is why I
start out saying that our actions bringing results has nothing to do with reward and punishment. There is
no idea of reward and punishment in Buddhism. Having a system of reward and punishment assumes
that there is somebody there running the universe, deciding who gets the rewards and who gets the
punishment. This is not the case in Buddhism.
According to Buddhism, nobody is running the universe, nobody is pulling the puppet strings. Nobody is
sending you here or there. Our life is completely created by the force of our own mind. Nobody is dishing
out rewards and punishments. When we create a cause, it naturally brings a result that corresponds to
that causal energy. We have all been busy planting flowers in the spring. When the flowers grow, they
are the results of the seeds that you planted, but they are not the punishment of the seeds and they are
not the reward of the seeds. They are just the results of the seeds.
This is important to understand because as we start discriminating different kinds of actions and the
different kinds of results that they bring, it is tempting to think “Oh.. Somebody did a destructive action.
They are getting punished because they are a bad person.” That is totally out of the ballpark from
Buddhist theory!

First of all, in Buddhism our actions may be harmful but that doesn't mean we are bad people. There is a
difference between the action and the person who does the action. All the people have Buddha potential
but their minds may be overwhelmed by garbage so they act in a harmful way. It doesn't mean they are
harmful, evil, bad, sinful people. This is a big difference. Second of all, just because somebody made a
mistake, it doesn't mean that they are getting punished. It’s just that if you plant a certain seed, it brings
a certain kind of flower or fruit or vegetable. It’s not a reward and not a punishment.
I’ve tried talking about karma to Jewish groups. It is very difficult to talk about karma to Holocaust
survivors. They go completely bananas, hearing it through Judeo-Christian ears. Karma has nothing to
do with deserving suffering. There is no such idea whatsoever in Buddhism.

[kaiselin]

galvatron, on Mar 21 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

General Characteristics of Karma
Written by Thubten Chodron.

http://www.thubtench...rma_25May92.pdf
• Science and Karma
• Karma is Not Retribution
• Everything Comes from the Mind
• Thinking about the General Aspects of Karma
! Karma is definite.
! Results of an action increase.
! If an action is not done, one will not meet with its results.
! Actions don’t go to waste without yielding a result.
• Karma is Not Linear
• Questions and Answers

When we look at our precious opportunity, see how rare it is and how much we can do with it, but that it
won't last forever, then we get a little concerned about what’s going to happen if we continue on with our
same old craziness. We start to look for some guides to show us a positive direction to take in life. Here
we turn to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha for guidance, for refuge. The first teaching that they give us
is the teaching on ‘karma’, or the functioning of cause and effect. It is actually at this point that our
Dharma practice really begins. In other words, it is with the observance of cause and effect that we
begin to practice. Cause and effect permeates everything we do; it permeates all of our daily activities.

Science and Karma
Science investigates cause and effect on a physical plain. You mix certain chemicals together and it
produces a certain result, or you look at certain stars in the sky and you try to trace back their causes.
‘Karma’ is talking about causality on a mental level, and ‘karma’ refers to actions. Karma refers to the
things that we say, do, think and feel, and the karma creates imprints on our mindstreams which then
bring the results in terms of what we experience later on.
With science, you can see or you can try and see causality. However, we can't see electrons and
protons and we can't see individual molecules of things, yet we still believe in how they function. Well,
with karma, we can often see what we do, we can hear what we say, and we recognize what we think
and feel. We can’t see the imprints that are left on our mindstream though. Those aren’t made of atomic
things. We can't measure them. Even if they were, as I said, you wouldn’t be able to see individual
atoms. What I'm getting at is, just because we can't see something, we shouldn’t say it doesn't exist. We
can't see atoms yet we know they exist. Karmic imprints left on our mind from our actions equally exist
even though we can’t see them.

One of my teachers said that we shouldn't be like nomads who don't believe in airplanes simply because
they haven't seen them. There are people who say “I haven't see it, therefore I don’t believe it!” They do
that in terms of airplanes; in terms of people landing on the moon. We look at that and say, “That's
dumb!”, and yet with other things that we haven't been able to see with our eyes, we’re completely
convinced that they don't exist. You see, we are not completely consistent in our way of discriminating
‘existent’ and ‘non-existent’ here. What I'm getting at is we need to have an open mind to recognize how
causality works on the mental plain. It's not something that is atomic which could be measured by
microscopes or telescopes or other measuring instruments.

Karma is Not Retribution
It is very important when we talk about karma, to understand that it is quite different from the Judeo-
Christian idea of retribution. I have found this to be a very common misconception. We may be listening
to teachings on karma but we hear them through Christian ears, and we get completely confused. We
are not hearing what the Buddha said, we are hearing what we were told when we were five years old in
Sunday school. It is important that as we listen to this, to try and listen with a fresh attitude. That is why I
start out saying that our actions bringing results has nothing to do with reward and punishment. There is
no idea of reward and punishment in Buddhism. Having a system of reward and punishment assumes
that there is somebody there running the universe, deciding who gets the rewards and who gets the
punishment. This is not the case in Buddhism.
According to Buddhism, nobody is running the universe, nobody is pulling the puppet strings. Nobody is
sending you here or there. Our life is completely created by the force of our own mind. Nobody is dishing
out rewards and punishments. When we create a cause, it naturally brings a result that corresponds to
that causal energy. We have all been busy planting flowers in the spring. When the flowers grow, they
are the results of the seeds that you planted, but they are not the punishment of the seeds and they are
not the reward of the seeds. They are just the results of the seeds.
This is important to understand because as we start discriminating different kinds of actions and the
different kinds of results that they bring, it is tempting to think “Oh.. Somebody did a destructive action.
They are getting punished because they are a bad person.” That is totally out of the ballpark from
Buddhist theory!

First of all, in Buddhism our actions may be harmful but that doesn't mean we are bad people. There is a
difference between the action and the person who does the action. All the people have Buddha potential
but their minds may be overwhelmed by garbage so they act in a harmful way. It doesn't mean they are
harmful, evil, bad, sinful people. This is a big difference. Second of all, just because somebody made a
mistake, it doesn't mean that they are getting punished. It’s just that if you plant a certain seed, it brings
a certain kind of flower or fruit or vegetable. It’s not a reward and not a punishment.
I’ve tried talking about karma to Jewish groups. It is very difficult to talk about karma to Holocaust
survivors. They go completely bananas, hearing it through Judeo-Christian ears. Karma has nothing to
do with deserving suffering. There is no such idea whatsoever in Buddhism.

Thank you galvatron,
I enjoyed reading your post.
The seed image is one i will use in the future when trying to explain.
So many christians have the totally wrong idea of what karma is all about and can never seem to get past the early indoctrination they are force feed in Sunday school.

[polar_zen]

galvatron, on Mar 21 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

General Characteristics of Karma
What I'm getting at is, just because we can't see something, we shouldn’t say it doesn't exist. We
can't see atoms yet we know they exist. Karmic imprints left on our mind from our actions equally exist
even though we can’t see them.

It's not something that is atomic which could be measured by
microscopes or telescopes or other measuring instruments.

Karma cannot be viewed scientifically, because ideas like karma and samsara (cycle of death and rebirth) cannot be empirically verified and are metaphysical concepts. It seems like it requires more faith (that's right, I said the "f" word) and it is something to believe in rather than something that can be empirically proven. One example he uses is comparing karma to an airplane and mentions how some people may not believe airplanes exist because they haven't seen it. The problem is that an airplane is physically real (as in I can experience its properties through my five senses) while karma is not. The best you could argue in this case is that you can see the possible affects on people by karma.

[Alan32]

galvatron, on Mar 22 2008, 03:51 AM, said:

General Characteristics of Karma
Written by Thubten Chodron.

http://www.thubtench...rma_25May92.pdf
• Science and Karma
• Karma is Not Retribution
• Everything Comes from the Mind
• Thinking about the General Aspects of Karma
! Karma is definite.
! Results of an action increase.
! If an action is not done, one will not meet with its results.
! Actions don’t go to waste without yielding a result.
• Karma is Not Linear
• Questions and Answers

When we look at our precious opportunity, see how rare it is and how much we can do with it, but that it
won't last forever, then we get a little concerned about what’s going to happen if we continue on with our
same old craziness. We start to look for some guides to show us a positive direction to take in life. Here
we turn to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha for guidance, for refuge. The first teaching that they give us
is the teaching on ‘karma’, or the functioning of cause and effect. It is actually at this point that our
Dharma practice really begins. In other words, it is with the observance of cause and effect that we
begin to practice. Cause and effect permeates everything we do; it permeates all of our daily activities.

Science and Karma
Science investigates cause and effect on a physical plain. You mix certain chemicals together and it
produces a certain result, or you look at certain stars in the sky and you try to trace back their causes.
‘Karma’ is talking about causality on a mental level, and ‘karma’ refers to actions. Karma refers to the
things that we say, do, think and feel, and the karma creates imprints on our mindstreams which then
bring the results in terms of what we experience later on.
With science, you can see or you can try and see causality. However, we can't see electrons and
protons and we can't see individual molecules of things, yet we still believe in how they function. Well,
with karma, we can often see what we do, we can hear what we say, and we recognize what we think
and feel. We can’t see the imprints that are left on our mindstream though. Those aren’t made of atomic
things. We can't measure them. Even if they were, as I said, you wouldn’t be able to see individual
atoms. What I'm getting at is, just because we can't see something, we shouldn’t say it doesn't exist. We
can't see atoms yet we know they exist. Karmic imprints left on our mind from our actions equally exist
even though we can’t see them.

One of my teachers said that we shouldn't be like nomads who don't believe in airplanes simply because
they haven't seen them. There are people who say “I haven't see it, therefore I don’t believe it!” They do
that in terms of airplanes; in terms of people landing on the moon. We look at that and say, “That's
dumb!”, and yet with other things that we haven't been able to see with our eyes, we’re completely
convinced that they don't exist. You see, we are not completely consistent in our way of discriminating
‘existent’ and ‘non-existent’ here. What I'm getting at is we need to have an open mind to recognize how
causality works on the mental plain. It's not something that is atomic which could be measured by
microscopes or telescopes or other measuring instruments.

Karma is Not Retribution
It is very important when we talk about karma, to understand that it is quite different from the Judeo-
Christian idea of retribution. I have found this to be a very common misconception. We may be listening
to teachings on karma but we hear them through Christian ears, and we get completely confused. We
are not hearing what the Buddha said, we are hearing what we were told when we were five years old in
Sunday school. It is important that as we listen to this, to try and listen with a fresh attitude. That is why I
start out saying that our actions bringing results has nothing to do with reward and punishment. There is
no idea of reward and punishment in Buddhism. Having a system of reward and punishment assumes
that there is somebody there running the universe, deciding who gets the rewards and who gets the
punishment. This is not the case in Buddhism.
According to Buddhism, nobody is running the universe, nobody is pulling the puppet strings. Nobody is
sending you here or there. Our life is completely created by the force of our own mind. Nobody is dishing
out rewards and punishments. When we create a cause, it naturally brings a result that corresponds to
that causal energy. We have all been busy planting flowers in the spring. When the flowers grow, they
are the results of the seeds that you planted, but they are not the punishment of the seeds and they are
not the reward of the seeds. They are just the results of the seeds.
This is important to understand because as we start discriminating different kinds of actions and the
different kinds of results that they bring, it is tempting to think “Oh.. Somebody did a destructive action.
They are getting punished because they are a bad person.” That is totally out of the ballpark from
Buddhist theory!

First of all, in Buddhism our actions may be harmful but that doesn't mean we are bad people. There is a
difference between the action and the person who does the action. All the people have Buddha potential
but their minds may be overwhelmed by garbage so they act in a harmful way. It doesn't mean they are
harmful, evil, bad, sinful people. This is a big difference. Second of all, just because somebody made a
mistake, it doesn't mean that they are getting punished. It’s just that if you plant a certain seed, it brings
a certain kind of flower or fruit or vegetable. It’s not a reward and not a punishment.
I’ve tried talking about karma to Jewish groups. It is very difficult to talk about karma to Holocaust
survivors. They go completely bananas, hearing it through Judeo-Christian ears. Karma has nothing to
do with deserving suffering. There is no such idea whatsoever in Buddhism.

In my opinion from what i have learnt from Falun Dafa, in this universe there are 2 substances that every person has, virtue and karma. Virtue is a white substance that generates when doing good deeds and suffering tribulations and hardships, Karma is generated from doing bad deeds and making other people suffer. The westerners can't be completely blamed with the fact that they do not understand karma, yet they do not understand cultivation practice either. They're idea of karma is "what goes around comes around", that's separated into karmic retribution which also comes from predestined relationship.
We are here as humans because we have sinned in the past and must pay for it here, here in this physical dimension we have a body that cannot stand being cold, being hot, from being hungry or thirsty and even self-conscious things like being near dirty things or things that may disgust you. In other dimensions where there are countless immortals and different beings in the cosmos, they do not have a body like ours where they take suffering as bad as ours. But on the other hand, this is the only place where they can truly cultivate to a higher realm because only here admist the delusion and this physical body can you be truly tested to see whether you can be at the required standard that a divine being has. Buddha Sakyamuni said "No Dharma is Definite" (im pretty sure it's something around that), this means that at every level there is a truth, that the truth is never the same at each level. For example, When you're at level 1 you think that everything you know is the unchangeable truth, one day you enlighten to level 2 and you realise all the things you knew about level 1 were wrong. This just goes on and on, the higher the level, the closer to the truth.

Commenting on:
"This is important to understand because as we start discriminating different kinds of actions and the
different kinds of results that they bring, it is tempting to think “Oh.. Somebody did a destructive action.
They are getting punished because they are a bad person.” That is totally out of the ballpark from
Buddhist theory!"

I think that you may be right, a person can't be judged on based on what he has just done now, but should be based over his total history from lifetime after lifetime. Major events that occur are the will of the gods, we cannot be blamed for that, as for minor things like fighting for personal gain, reputation, mentality of showing off, that is where the karma kicks in. As long as the person feels remorse for what he has done, he can still change. If he doesnt feel any remorse whatsoever, then i think that is completely out of the question. Even though people think like that, everyday people(excluding cultivators) need to follow the laws of being human, since they did not choose the path of cultivation, returning to one's true self, they must follow what is human. This Earth is created for humans and they cannot cease to exist, what kind of society would this be if everyone was good to each other? wouldn't it be a society of gods and not humans?.
Anyway this is just my understanding from cultivating Falun Dafa.