332 replies to this topic

[Gubook Janggoon]

I've heard that they claimed to be the successors of Goguryeo but how much of a connection was there? Did they share a common culture, language, ect? pics would help...so far I've found this much..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barhae

Bohai
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Balhae was a kingdom in northeast Asia from AD 698 to 926, occupying parts of Manchuria, northern Korea, and Russian Far East. Bohai was founded by Dae jo Young of the Goguryeo and integrated several Mohe tribes. It was conquered by the Khitan in 926.

In the confusion of the Khitan rebellion against Tang in 696, the remnant of the Goguryeo, led by Qiqi Zhongxiang and Qisi Piyu, escaped eastward to their homeland. The two leaders died but Dae Jo Young, the son of Qiqi Zhongxiang, established the State of Zin (震 or 振). Dae Jo Young established his capital at Dongmu Mountain in the south of today's Jilin province. Since it gained power under protection of the northern nomadic empire of Gokturk, Tang gave Dae Jo Young the title of "Prefecture King of Balhae" in 713.

The second king Da Wuyi (Wuwang), who felt encircled by Tang, Silla and Black Water Mohe along the Amur River, attacked Tang and his navy briefly occupied a port on the Shandong Peninsula in 732. Later, a compromise was forged between Tang and Balhae, which resumed tributary mission to Tang. He also sent a mission to Japan in 728 to threaten Silla from the rear. Balhae kept diplomatic and commercial contacts with Japan until the end of the kingdom. Because of its proximity to many powerful states, Balhae became a buffer zone for the region.


The third king Da Jinmao (Wen Wang) expanded its territory into the Amur valley in the north and the Liaodong Peninsula in the west. He also established the permanent capital near Lake Jingpo in the south of today's Heilongjiang province around 755.

After destroying Bohai in 926, the Khitan established the puppet Dongdan Kingdom, which was soon followed by the annexation by Liao in 936. Bohai aristocrats were moved to Liaoyang but small fragments of the state remained semi-independent. Some Bohai people fled southward to Goryeo, including a son of the last king. Some descendants of the royal family live in Korea, changing their family name to Tae (太). The Jurchen Jin Dynasty favored the Bohai people as well as the Khitans. The fourth, fifth and seventh emperors were mothered by Bohai concubines. The 13th century census of Northern China by the Mongols distinguished Bohai from other ethnic groups such as Goryeo (Korean), Khitan and Jurchen. This suggests that the Bohai people still preserved their identity.


Characterization and political exploitation

The kingdom that straddled the current borders of the PRC, North Korea and Russia has been positioned and politically exploited in various ways.

Bohai was once likened to Manchukuo for its friendly relationship with Japan. Currently Japanese scholars oppose both the Korean and Chinese political exploitations and try to treat Bohai as itself.

In North and South Korea, Bohai is regarded as a Korean state and is positioned in the "North-South period" (with Silla) today, although such a trend has been marginal for a long time. Based on their belief that Goguryeo was a Korean state, they emphasize its connection with Goguryeo and degrade that with the Mohe. While South Korean historians think ruling class was of Goguryeo and the commoners were Mohe, North Korean historians think Bohai ethnography was mostly Goguryeo. Both claims gain little support outside Korea.

The PRC projects the current border to history. It treat everything that happened in its territory as part of its history. Today the Chinese historians consider Bohai as a local government of the Tang, and think it was ruled by the Bohai ethnic group, which was mostly based on the Mohe. They stress the importance of the Bohai-Tang relationship.

Russian scholars think of Bohai as an independent Mohe state, with Central Asian and Chinese influence. They put weight on archaeology.

The genealogy of the royal family is also disputed. Koreans claims that the founder Da Zuorong was a Goguryeo. They trusted the description of the Old Book of the Tang and discredit that of the New Book of the Tang for unknown reasons. Non-Korean scholars criticize that they made arbitary interpretation for historical sources which depends on whether they suits to their nationalistic belief or not. The Old Book of the Tang says that Da Zuorong of the Bohai Mohe was a "variant" of Goryeo [Goguryeo] (高麗別種) while the New Book of the Tang states "originally Sumo Mohe affiliated to Goryeo."



An important source of cultural information on Bohai was discovered at the end of the 20th century at the Ancient Tombs at Longtou Mountain, especially the Mausoleum of Princess Zhenxiao.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Map of the kingdom


This seems to be a Barhae artifact...


Wall mural

[Karakhan]

Russian sources claim that Barhae/Bohai was definitely a Tungus kingdom that was influenced by Korea. Furthermore they believe that Koreans with the surname Tae 태, were descendants of fleeing Bohai Tungus, running from the invasion of the Khitans.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Thanks, I knew they fled south, but I never knew their connection with that particular family. They also claimed to be the sucessor of Goguryeo no?

[Karakhan]

Thanks, I knew they fled south, but I never knew their connection with that particular family.  They also claimed to be the sucessor of Goguryeo no?

yes you are right. However like I said, this is base on Russian sources. Most Russian history books I read put almost every single Tungus group (Evenki, Nanai, Evens, etc) as a descendant of Pohai and Jin even though I strongly think that Evenkis and especially Evens probably had little to do with those two kingdoms because they are so far away.

Korean sources seem to be mixed.. some recognize that Tae have Tungus origins, others claim that Pohai was ruled by Korean elites and mainly populated by Tungus people.

[stupidumboy]

Thanks, I knew they fled south, but I never knew their connection with that particular family.  They also claimed to be the sucessor of Goguryeo no?

I ve learned that the Balhae Kingdom was founded by the wandering people of Koguryo Kingdom after it had collapsed by Tang/Shinra allied troops.

The highest portion of the population-i meant the majority people of the Balhae kingdom was Tungus.
But the royal and noble class were mainly Koguryo descents.

Thats what I just learned from School in Korea.
Any different ideas ?

[Gubook Janggoon]

That's the Korean school of thought...

The Chinese say it was a local government of the Tang dynasty.

And the Russians say that it was an independent Malgal nation...


BTW stupidumboy are you Korean too?

[stupidumboy]

That's the Korean school of thought...

The Chinese say it was a local government of the Tang dynasty.

And the Russians say that it was an independent Malgal nation...
BTW stupidumboy are you Korean too?

That's very true indeed.

But reading of the Japanese history book-'續日本紀' -from the 10th book
This mention is found from the letter of Balhae King "Mu" to Japan when it wants to open a new diplomatic relationship with Yamato.

it says '復高麗之舊居,有扶餘之遺俗 ' -Balhae is the country that upholded the tradition and spirit of the Koguryo and Buyeo.

[General_Zhaoyun]

BTW stupidumboy are you Korean too?

Yeah, Stupidumboy is from South Korea

[Gubook Janggoon]

Thanks GZ for pointing that out!

That's very true indeed.

But reading of the Japanese history book-'續日本紀' -from the 10th book
This mention is found  from the letter of  Balhae King "Mu" to Japan when it wants to open a new diplomatic relationship with Yamato.

it says '復高麗之舊居,有扶餘之遺俗 ' -Balhae is the country that upholded the tradition and spirit of the Koguryo and Buyeo.

Yes, I think the Korean historians are going about the history of Barhae all wrong. It shouldn't be about ethnicity or race, but more about legitimacy and successorship.

[Yun]

[Copied from my post in another thread]

This is the Xin Tangshu account of the history of Bohai (Barhae):

The Bohai kings were originally Sumo Malgal subjects of Koguryo, with the surname of Da. After the destruction of Koguryo, they led their people to occupy Mount Dongmu of the Yilou people (former name for the Malgal), 2,000 li east of Yingzhou. On their south was Silla, with the Ni River as the border between the two. On the east was the great ocean, and on their west were the Khitan. They built cities to live in, and some of the remnants of Koguryo pledged allegiance to them.

In 696-697, the Khitan Jingzhong (a chieftain enfeoffed by the Tang as a Grand General and Commander-in-Chief of Songmo) rebelled and killed the Commander-in-Chief (Dudu) of Yingzhou, Zhao Wenhui. A man named Sheli Qiqi Zhongxiang fled east with the Malgal chieftain Qisi Biyu and remnants of Koguryo, crossing the Liao River and occupying the northeast of the Taibai mountains. They blocked traffic on the Aolou River and erected their own fortifications. Empress Wu (Zetian) enfeoffed Qisi Biyu as Duke of Xu and Qiqi Zhongxiang as Duke of Zhen, and offered them an amnesty. But Biyu refused to accept this, and the Empress then issued an edict for Grand General Li Kaigu and Guards General Suo Qiu to attack and kill him. At this time, Zhongxiang had died, and his son Zuorong led the remainder of his followers to flee. Li Kaigu pursued relentlessly, and crossed the Tianmen Ridge. Zuorong then resisted Kaigu with Koguryo and Malgal troops, and Kaigu retreated in defeat. [This was the same Ridge where the Khitan defeated An Lushan's army in 751 or 752.]

So the Khitan pledged allegiance to the Turkut, and the Tang army was cut off from them and unable to subdue them. Zuorong then took over the forces of Biyu (who had been killed), and taking advantage of his remote location, founded his own state, titling himself as King of Zhen (Zhenguo Wang) and sending envoys to establish relations with the Turkut. His kingdom was 5,000 li across, with over 100,000 households, and several tens of thousands of fine soldiers. The people were quite familiar with writing. They conquered the various kingdoms north of the sea like Fuyu (Puyo), Woju, Bianhan (Pyonhan), and Chaoxian (Choson). [Not sure if this is an exaggeration, especially since Pyonhan was at the southern tip of the Korean peninsula.]

In the reign of Zhongzong (705-709), Imperial Censor Zhang Xingji was sent to reopen relations with them, and Zuorong sent a son to the imperial court. In 713, envoys were sent to enfeoff Zuorong as Left Grand General of the Elite Guards and Prince of Bohai Prefecture (Bohai junwang), and his territory was incorporated into the empire as Huhanzhou province, with Zuorong himself as Commander-in-Chief (Dudu) of Huhanzhou. [So the Tang gave him an official title to recognise his de facto autonomy.] From then on, the kingdom discarded the name of Malgal and called itself only as Bohai [the name given by Tang].

In 719, Zuorong died, and his kingdom privately [i.e. without Tang approval] gave him the posthumous title of Gaowang (High King). His son Wuyi became ruler and expanded the state's territory, and the various barbarians of the northeast were awed into submission to him. He privately changed the reign title to Ren'an. Tang Xuanzong gave him the right to inherit the princedom and other posts held by Zuorong. Before long, the Heishui Malgal sent ambassadors to the Tang court, and Tang Xuanzong established Heishuizhou Province in their land, with an Administrator (Zhangshi) to oversee matters there. Wuyi gathered his subordinates and discussed this: "At first the Heishui passed through our land to have relations with the Tang. When they wanted Tang troops to help them guard against the Turkut, they would first consult me. But this time they requested a Tang official in their land without telling me, so obviously they want to combine with the Tang to attack me from front and back." He ordered his younger brother Menyi and his uncle Renyaxiang to lead an army to attack the Heishui. Menyi had been to the Tang capital before [he may be the son whom Zuorong sent to the court], and knew the power of the Tang, and so he told Wuyi: "If we attack the Heishui after they have requested a Tang official, that would be turning against the Tang. The Tang is a big country with ten thousand times more soldiers than we, and if we become enemies with them, we will surely be destroyed. Back then Koguryo was at its peak and had 300,000 troops, and when it resisted the Tang it could be considered a strong state. But once the Tang army arrived, it swept the place clean. Today, our forces are only a third as many as Koguryo's, and if Your Highness wants to defy the Tang it would be impossible."

Wuyi did not listen, and when the Bohai army under Menyi was getting close to the land of the Heishui, Menyi wrote another letter to urge Wuyi against it. Wuyi was enraged and sent his cousin Yitai to replace Menyi. He recalled Menyi, intending to execute him. Menyi was afraid and fled to Tang by another route. The court appointed him as Left General of the Elite Guards [his father's old post]. Wuyi then sent an envoy to "expose" Menyi's crimes to the court, requesting that he be executed. Tang Xuanzong then issued an edict exiling Menyi to Anxi (the Tarim Basin), intending to tell Wuyi: "Menyi took refuge with me under desperate circumstances, and it would not be good for me to kill him. I have sent him to a desolate region." But he kept Wuyi's envoy in the capital and did not send him back, while ordering the Junior Ministers of Tributary Relations (Honglu Shaoqing), Li Daosui and Yuan Fu, to draft a more formal edict for Wuyi.

Wuyi found out about this, and sent a letter to Tang Xuanzong criticising him: "Your Majesty should not display his arrogance to all under heaven." The implication was that Menyi must die. Xuanzong was angry with Li Daosui and Yuan Fu for leaking out the details to Wuyi's envoy, and had them sacked. He then replied to Wuyi's demand with a formal reprimand for Menyi.

In 722, Wuyi sent his general Zhang Wenxiu to lead pirates on a raid of Dengzhou (on the Shandong peninsula), and Xuanzong then hurriedly sent Menyi to lead the troops from Youzhou to attack Bohai, while sending Minister of Transport Jin Silan to Silla as an ambassador to coordinate a simultaneous Silla attack on Bohai from the south. [this was the Bohai attack on Tang that GJ mentioned - in 722, not 732. Lee Ki-baik's book was mistaken on the date.] However, it was a very cold winter with a huge snowfall, and more than half of the Tang soldiers froze to death. The Tang army withdrew without achieving anything. [This was the campaign which caused the death of the father of Snowybeagle's character in the RPG thread.]


Wuyi, being unable to secure the execution of his brother Menyi by the Tang court, recruited an assassin to go to Luoyang and murder Menyi on the streets. But Menyi fought off the assassin and escaped death. The assassin was arrested in Henan and executed.

Wuyi died and was privately given the title of Wuwang (martial king). His son Qinmao became ruler and changed the reign title to Daxing. Xuanzong issued an edict for him to inherit all his father's titles and posts, and Qinmao then issued an amnesty in his kingdom. At the end of the Tianbao reign (the 750s), Qinmao shifted his capital to Shangjing, 300 li east of the Huhan River in the former Malgal lands. Throughout the reign of Xuanzong, there were 29 embassies of tribute from Bohai to the Tang. In 762 (the first year of Suzong's reign), the Tang court issued an edict officially making Bohai a kingdom, with Qinmao as king (not just prince). Qinmao's rank was raised to Grand Marshal of the Inspectorate (Jianxiao Taiwei).

From 766-779, there were 25 tribute missions to the Tang court from Bohai. A total of 11 Japanese dancing girls were given to the Tang court by Bohai throughout this time. [this suggests that Bohai either had relations with Japan, or was raiding the Japanese coast.]

Edited by Yun, 10 April 2005 - 08:09 AM.

[tianzhuwoye]

Just a quote from a real old and pretty 'neutral' source (mostly based on earlier Korean scholarship):

"The Manchurian (think this means 'Tungusic')-Korean state of Parhae was based upon the foundations welded together by Koguryeo, and, indeed, in a missive to Japan they described themselves as having recovered the former territories of Koguryeo and as possessing the surviving customs of Puyeo. The leadership element of Parhae was drawn from the Malgal people who had been one of the components of Koguryeo."

Parhae's wikipedia entry is really getting a workout, huh...

Also a little nitpick: what are the characters for Limo?

[Yun]

Oh sorry, I checked and it should be Sumo 粟末. I mistook the 'su' for 'li', the word meaning 'chestnut' (that has a wood radical below, instead of a grain radical).

Have corrected the post accordingly.

[WangKon936]

Excellent posting Yun. Where did you get that? Did you get it from a Chinese source like the New History of Tang and translate it into English?

I also wanted to add my 2 cents into the Balhae/Bohai discussion. Awhile ago I ran into an abstract of a PhD. dissertation on Bohai by a Dutch professor who looked at both texual analysis of all the available works on the kingdom and archelogy data to come up with a balanced view on Bohai.

Here is an abstract on Dr. Reckel’s work for you guys to read directly. Enjoy!

Bohai-Geschichte und Kultur eines mandschurisch-koreanischen Königreiches der Tang-Zeit, dargestellt nach den Schriftzeugnissen und dem archäologischen Fundmaterial [in German]. To be published as Aetas Manjurica 5 (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1995)

Reckel, Johannes, Ph.D. Thesis, University of Göttingen, 1993

Bohai flourished between 698 and 926, when it was overrun by the Mongolian Kitan. It occupied the area of Manchuria, northern Korea and the Russian territories east of the Ussuri and along the Amur. The importance of Bohai lies in the fact that it stands on a major turning point in the history of Northeast Asia and more specifically, Manchuria. Until the middle of the 1st m. AD, Manchuria was dominated by Korean kingdoms like Koguryo and Puyo, and the Sushen, whom the old Chinese historians believed to be the ancestors of the modern Manchu. Around 500 AD, the Wuji, who soon afterwards are called Mohe, poured into the whole of Manchuria, destrouying Puyo and eventually making up a considerable percentage of the population of Korugyo. In 668, Silla destroyed her two rivals, Paekche and Koguryo, with the help of the Chinese army. But neither China nor Silla managed to bring the northern parts of Koguryo under their own rule, and in 698 a new kingdom, soon afterwards called Bohai, emerged from the former Koguryo upper class and the Mohe. Bohai’s third king, Da Qinmao (r. 737-93), built five large capitals ( a tradition later carried on by the Kitan and Jurchen) ca. 3400x4600m, after the model of the Chinese capital Chang’an. The ruins of three of these five capitals have been found and (partly) excavated; they belong to the largest cities in Asia of those days.

Unfortunately, all written historical records of Bohai herself have been destroyed. Thus we have to rely on the rather biased Chinese sources and on records the Japanese kept concerning Bohai missions arriving in Japan. Korean sources pass over this unpleasant rival in the north, which claimed to be the rightful heir of Koguryo, altogether in silence. Today it is still a matter of discussion amongst historians if Bohai is a Korean kingdom, a Manchurian-Tungus state or just a Chinese vassal. Bohai definitely had a mixed population. The Koguryo upper class represents the old “Korean” Manchuria, whereas the majority of the rural population-probably even the royal family-was of Tungus-Mohe stock, pointing towards the future Manchuria.

This thesis is not a specialized study on certain aspects of Bohai but tries to establish a basis upon which more detailed research could be carried out in future. Part one (ca. 200 pp.) offers a complete translation [into German] of all Chinese and Korean written sources on the Mohe (from ca. 500 AD onwards) and on Bohai, and it summarises in translation the Japanese Six National Histories (rikkokushi), etc. Part two lists all known archaeological sites of Mohe/Bohai culture in China, Korea and Russia, with longer or shorter descriptions for each site arranged according to areas centred around one of the ancient capitals or major provincial towns. Where possible, certain archaeological sites have been linked to places mentioned in the written sources. 150 pages of figures show the objects found on the archaeological sites in B&W drawings. Part three tries to give a description and analysis of Bohai history and culture on the basis of the material previously presented.

Through the archaeological materials, the picture drawn by the scanty written sources becomes much clearer: three different materials cultures are found in Bohai territory. Firstly, the old Koguryo culture is mainly confined to old Koguryo territory along the Tumen river and its tributaries and the royal burial ground of the first two or three generations near modern Dunhua: represented by tiles with ornamented surfaces, small stepped-pyramid forming underground stone tombs, certain types of Buddhist stone images, and stone-faced town walls, etc. The Chinese Tang culture flourished mainly in and around the Supreme and Central capitals (Shangjing, Zhongjing). It is represented by brick pagodas, brick tombs with murals depicting Tang-style courtiers, the structure of the capitals, and three-coloured glazed ceramics, etc. The picture of the third culture, of the Mohe, is slightly more complicated. The “Leitfossil” of this culture is a small urn-shaped pot with a double rim near its mouth. Together with certain highly ornamented belt-plaques, it is found in nearly all Wuji/Mohe tombs or house ruins from the 5th-10th c. AD. Interestingly enough, we also find it in the burial ground of the first generations of the royal family of Bohai. But thereafter it is absent from the rather sophisticated culture of the new capitals developing since the second half of the 8th c. and is pushed towards the northern fringes of the empire.

This archaeological evidence is confirmed by an analysis of the personal names of Bohai. (Of course, the sources would not record the names of the common people but rather of officials and representatives of the ruling class.) Typical Mohe-names disappear completely after the first two generations, whereas members of the old Koguryo upper class-represented by those bearing the family name Gao (Kor. Ko as short for Koguryo)-continue to play a leading role, especially in the frequent missions to Japan. The Mohe in the southern and central parts of Bohai had become completely sinicised by the time of the downfall of Bohai, whereas the Mohe culture along the lower Sungari and Amur in the 10th c. develops into the Jurchen culture, represented by typical pottery with pumpkin-shaped bellies and high necks. Towards the end of the 11th c. the Jurchen reconquer lost ground and again occupy nearly the whole of Manchuria.

The limits of this thesis do not allow a detailed study of the Mohe culture; however, a comprehensive bibliography on the Mohe and Bohai of nearly a thousand titles invites the reader to further studies.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Nice first post dude. Welcome to CHF.