[xiangyu]

does any one know more about this battle?all i got was ..the song dynasty ended there at yamen.today xinhui county,guangdong(which happens to be my birth place)i lived 3 km,s from yamen.i also know the general of yuan dynasty in charge of the battle was general, Zhang Hongfan in 1279.

[Yun]

You're referring to Yashan, which is also known as Yamen today. In 1279, a naval battle was fought here between the Song loyalist fleet under Lu Xiufu and Zhang Shijie, and the Mongol Yuan fleet under Zhang Hongfan. The battle lasted for days, but because the Yuan infantry and navy had got the Song fleet bottled up between the land and sea, taking turns to attack at low tide and high tide respectively, the exhausted Song warships began surrendering. Lu Xiufu jumped into the sea with the boy-emperor Zhao Bing on his back, and both drowned. Zhang Shijie broke out of the blockade with more than ten ships, but later his fleet went down in a typhoon and he died too. More than 100,000 Song loyalist officials and palace women committed suicide by jumping into the sea.

However, I prefer to see the Southern Song as ending in 1276 when the imperial court surrendered at Hangzhou. The 1276-1279 war was a resistance movement trying to restore the dynasty under two imperial princes who were just children (similar in some sense to the Southern Ming). Wen Tianxiang was a leader of this movement, but was captured on land before the battle at Yashan. He was actually forced to watch the battle on a Mongol ship, and his famous poem 'Crossing the Lingding Sea' is actually referring to part of Guangzhou Bay.

Yashan today is just a narrow inlet where no one could fight a naval battle, but that is the result of the silting of Guangzhou Bay since the Ming and Qing. In the Song dynasty, however, the bay was much larger and more open, and Yashan was right on the edge of it. Here's a picture of the bay as it was in the Song, with the present coastline as a red line. Yashan is indicated with a red dot.

[xiangyu]

thxs yun i lived very near where the battles had happened,

[shurite7]

Yun, on Feb 21 2005, 08:56 PM, said:

You're referring to Yashan, which is also known as Yamen today. In 1279, a naval battle was fought here between the Song loyalist fleet under Lu Xiufu and Zhang Shijie, and the Mongol Yuan fleet under Zhang Hongfan. The battle lasted for days, but because the Yuan infantry and navy had got the Song fleet bottled up between the land and sea, taking turns to attack at low tide and high tide respectively, the exhausted Song warships began surrendering. Lu Xiufu jumped into the sea with the boy-emperor Zhao Bing on his back, and both drowned. Zhang Shijie broke out of the blockade with more than ten ships, but later his fleet went down in a typhoon and he died too. More than 100,000 Song loyalist officials and palace women committed suicide by jumping into the sea.

However, I prefer to see the Southern Song as ending in 1276 when the imperial court surrendered at Hangzhou. The 1276-1279 war was a resistance movement trying to restore the dynasty under two imperial princes who were just children (similar in some sense to the Southern Ming). Wen Tianxiang was a leader of this movement, but was captured on land before the battle at Yashan. He was actually forced to watch the battle on a Mongol ship, and his famous poem 'Crossing the Lingding Sea' is actually referring to part of Guangzhou Bay.

Yashan today is just a narrow inlet where no one could fight a naval battle, but that is the result of the silting of Guangzhou Bay since the Ming and Qing. In the Song dynasty, however, the bay was much larger and more open, and Yashan was right on the edge of it. Here's a picture of the bay as it was in the Song, with the present coastline as a red line. Yashan is indicated with a red dot.

Yun,

What source did you use to obtain this info? Was it the same source you used for the siege of Xiangyang?

cheers

[Yun]

Essentially yes, with reference also the original passage in the Song Shi.

[ih8eurocentrix]

Im not sure the name of the battle sorry, i searched past forum topics.The song emperor who was a child commited suicide.
Wikipedia claims the Song had 700,000 naval men compared to Mongols 30,000 .This is surely an Exaggeration but it seems clear the Song outnumbered the Mongols vastly.

How is it possible for the Song who are superior to the northern Jin in Riverine combat or lake combat could be devastated by the mongol/jin navy

[Snafu]

ih8eurocentrix, on Jul 30 2006, 08:02 AM, said:

Im not sure the name of the battle sorry, i searched past forum topics.The song emperor who was a child commited suicide.
Wikipedia claims the Song had 700,000 naval men compared to Mongols 30,000 .This is surely an Exaggeration but it seems clear the Song outnumbered the Mongols vastly.

How is it possible for the Song who are superior to the northern Jin in Riverine combat or lake combat could be devastated by the mongol/jin navy

That battle was between the Mongols and the last remnants of the Song court, not the full Song forces. They were hiding out on the island of Yaishan and the Mongols blockaded the island. The Song fighters tried to break the blockade but they were defeated and the young emperor drowned. That battle, in 1279, is considered the official end of the Song dynasty, but technically the dynasty surrendered in 1276.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

So what do you guys believe? The child emperor Bing drowned in the water due to his ship being sunk? Or was it that he was plunged into the water forcefully by the loyal minister Lu Xiufu?

Eric

[shurite7]

So what do you guys believe? The child emperor Bing drowned in the water due to his ship being sunk? Or was it that he was plunged into the water forcefully by the loyal minister Lu Xiufu?


Most sources state a loyal court official, to the Song, took the child emperor into their arms and jumped overboard drowning both the child and themself.

[ih8eurocentrix]

How did the Mongols surround the song who outnumbered them?

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

ih8eurocentrix, on Aug 2 2006, 01:35 AM, said:

How did the Mongols surround the song who outnumbered them?

My first guess would be better tactics in strategy. Although outnumbered greatly, you can still flank and isolate sections from the larger body to deal with them first (much like sharks and dolphins work together in isolationg an enormous group of sardine fish from the much greater traveling herd of them. Lol. I know, bad example, but the same method still applies). Also, having greater morale and fighting spirit is a big factor in determining the effectiveness of your troops in battle, no matter what size of the force. For example, when Qin General Zhang Fan's massive army clearly outnumbered his opponent Xiang Yu in the now rebel State of Zhao, Xiang Yu bested him by cutting off Wang Li's supply lines, burning his supplies, and forcing his troops to carry only three-days worth of food rations - in other words, saying to them, if you retreat from this battle you're supposed to fight, then good luck, cuz you'll soon starve to death if not found first and executed for being a traitor and deserting the ranks. This made his troops very fierce and much more willing to fight. Does anyone know if the Mongols used such tactics?

Eric

[Yun]

It's the battle of Yashan or Yamen, and I've merged this with an older thread on the battle.

Here is a timeline of the battle, based on the Song Shi (with dates converted to Gregorian calendar):

26 February 1279 - the Yuan general Zhang Hongfan (a former Song general who surrendered to the Yuan) leads an army to besiege the Song loyalists at the coast of Yashan. [Note: Yashan was a stretch of coastline, not an island]

6 March - Yuan general Li Heng arrives to reinforce Zhang Hongfan.

Zhang Shijie anchors the fleet and ties over a thousand large warships together with ropes, erecting towers like city ramparts on their decks, and placing the emperor Zhao Bing in the centre. When the Yuan fleet attacks, the Song fleet is immovable like a fortress. The Yuan then tries using fire-ships in a favourable wind to set fire to the Song fleet. Zhang Shijie has the Song ships coated with mud to fire-proof them, and then uses long wooden poles to push the fire-ships away before they can reach the fleet.

14 March - Song loyalist commander-in-chief Zhang Shijie's general Chen Bao surrenders to the Yuan army.

15 March - Song loyalist general Zhang Da makes a night attack on the Yuan camp, but is defeated with heavy losses.

19 March - A dark, heavy fog descends on the western part of Yashan. The Yuan general Li Heng takes advantage of the low tide in the morning to attack the northern (coastward) side of the Song naval encampment. Zhang Shijie resists desperately with Song troops from the Huai River region. In the afternoon, Zhang Hongfan leads a fleet to strike at the southern side of the Song encampment during high tide. The Song troops are exhausted and before long, one of the Song warships lowers its flag in surrender. Most of the other Song ships also lower their flags one by one. Zhang Shijie pulls his elite units back to the central encampment for a last defense, but the other units fall apart, with many generals surrendering.

By the time the Yuan troops reach the Song central encampment, night has fallen and a storm has broken out, with a thick fog obscuring everything. Zhang Shijie and Su Liuyi cut the ropes tying the ships together and escape from the blockade with more than ten ships. Song loyalist Prime Minister Lu Xiufu, seeing that Zhao Bing's ship is too large to escape and is tied securely to other ships anyway, takes Zhao Bing onto his back and jumps into the sea. Many other ministers and palace women jump into the sea as well.

25 March - Over 100,000 dead bodies are reported washed up on shore.

[Mok]

Yun, on Feb 22 2005, 10:56 AM, said:

However, I prefer to see the Southern Song as ending in 1276 when the imperial court surrendered at Hangzhou. The 1276-1279 war was a resistance movement trying to restore the dynasty under two imperial princes who were just children (similar in some sense to the Southern Ming). Wen Tianxiang was a leader of this movement, but was captured on land before the battle at Yashan. He was actually forced to watch the battle on a Mongol ship, and his famous poem 'Crossing the Lingding Sea' is actually referring to part of Guangzhou Bay.

Why do you think that, Yun? Not disputing, just curious is all. Because I've always thought that Yashan/Yamen was Song's last stand and even based some historical fiction on that.

Incidentally, my uncle and his family visited Guangdong earlier this year and went to Yashan. I hope to visit there one day too.

[Yun]

Essentially because the reigning Song emperor surrendered to the Mongols in the imperial capital in 1276. But I am aware there can be some debate and inconsistency. The Western Jin is seen as ending in 317, even though the Western Jin emperor surrendered to the Xiongnu in 311 at Luoyang, and the Jin regime of 312-317 at Chang'an was essentially a resistance movement led by a prince (who did declare himself emperor, of course). On the other hand, the Ming ends in 1644 despite the Southern Ming resistance lasting quite a while longer after that.

[Mok]

Yun, on Aug 12 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

Essentially because the reigning Song emperor surrendered to the Mongols in the imperial capital in 1276. But I am aware there can be some debate and inconsistency. The Western Jin is seen as ending in 317, even though the Western Jin emperor surrendered to the Xiongnu in 311 at Luoyang, and the Jin regime of 312-317 at Chang'an was essentially a resistance movement led by a prince (who did declare himself emperor, of course). On the other hand, the Ming ends in 1644 despite the Southern Ming resistance lasting quite a while longer after that.

Ah, je comprends maintenant. Merci beaucoup.