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Ran Min: Hitler of East Asia? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:27 PM

Ran Min's policy of genocide is analogous to Hitler's policies.

He systematically massacred the Jie(white huns, or Sogdians). During the Fragmentation age the 5 Hu entered the North China plains and set up a number of kingdoms. The most powerful was the Later Zhao of the Shi family which was Jie(white huns) in ethnicity. Ran Min was an adopted son of emperor Shi Hu. His origin was perhaps a Han peasant that was captured during war. But Qian Mu mentioned he might have hunnish blood as well. Despite been adopted by a Jie family. He had a hatred toward the people, and he managed to ursurp the Zhao throne in 350 A.D. and carry out a systematic extermination of all the jie in the North China plain and ordered that if they don't leave in a given time, all will be executed.

At the time the population of the Tanguts, Yue Shi, and Huns in Shan Xi was around 800,000. The xiongnu, Xianbei and Jie population of Shang Xi was another 800,000. Population of Hebei have some 900,000 Ding Lin and Xianbei.
Their population in He Nan and Shang Dong is less but probably no less than 300,000.

When Ran Min consolidated power, he started to campaign against all the other states. His base of southern He Bei, He Nan, Shan Xi, and Shang Dong already had many Non-Han inhabitants. He ordered all their massacre and it is said that even those Han people with slight hairy features were killed without trial. In just 1 day his armies killed tens of thousands of Jie. This ruthless massacre obviously forced the suffered Jie and Hunnish people to escape to the East and reestablished the independent kingdom of Zhao in He Bei with the capital of Xiang Guo with Shi Hu's son as emperor. Ran Min invaded Zhao with 3,000 cavalry and under a night attack destroyed the Hunnish encampment and killed 30,000 Zhao troops. He followed that with 5,000 cavalry and destroyed a Zhao cavalry of 70,000 through maneuvre. The other states are greatly alarmed and the Tanguts and Yue Shi allied the Zhao with a total 300,000 army to attack Ran Min. But Ran Ming manage to again rout that army with the 70,000 cavalry in addition to 40,000 newly recruited troop. The Zhao finally managed to defeat the invading army of Ran Min with the help of Murong Yan state of Xianbei in Manchuria. However this new Zhao kingdom became largely sinicized an under the influence of the Han officials so that the throne was ursurped by Liu who in turn submitted to Ran Min. This followed with his army massacring 400,000 white huns in Shouthern Shang Xi and He Bei and massacred over 320,000 inhabitants in that territory. Creating terror among the other states. Meanwhile in the east Ran Min again destroyed an allied army of over 100,000 of the Tangut and Yue Shi with only 60,000 army. He followed up with an attack on the allies with merely 2,000 newly created Han cavalry corps and further annihilated an army of 70,000 that arrived as reinforcement. The kingdom of Murong Yan was obviously alarmed and under general Murong Ge attacked Ran Min in He Bei with 140,000 soldier, yet they were utterly defeated by Ran Min in 10 separate battles. Ran Min massacred whereever he went and in all his terriotries, he have virtually wiped out all of the Hu regimes in central plain with the exception of Xianbei which is in too great of number.

But his success alarmed the Eastern Jin of south who started to built up army and captured Shan Dong and He Nan. And poised to take Shan Xi and He Bei as well. Ran Min was furious at the Jin's action and declared himself emperor of Wei. But it was a bad time for now he is surrounded on all sides by enemies and his troops have fought years of battle and the resource of his kingdom is mostly depleted with insufficient agricultural basis. Ran Min therefore raided the inhabitant in the Ding Zhou part of He Bei for supply with only 10,000 infantry. But he was too careless, and the Murong army herd of this and mobilized a large portion of their whole army numbering 200,000 and surrounded the region.

The Yan general Murong Ke finally manage to trap Ran Min's 10,000 infantry, and he formed encirclements on Ran Min's army and greatly outnumbered his. Although Rang Min's army is mostly infantry, all of them were highly disciplined troops trained and fought at his side since the begining. And although Ran Min is a butcher and tyrant he still love his troops so they would fight with him to the death. For this Murong Ke was repeatedly defeated by Ran Min's infantry since his infantry would just charge in formation at one point of the Yan cavalry always breaking the encirclement.

And over ten battles Murong Ke always failed to win. Murong Ke found out that the reason is Ran Min's infantry always goes through the gaps that result in his cavalry encirclement after it got hit by the force of Ran Min's infantry. So he ordered the horses tied together in chains to fill the gaps and also prevent the horses from running away.

Next morning, Murong Ke divided his army into 3 divisions and ordered the two left and right divisions to ambush on two sides. He created a large flag at the front of the central division which is a chained 5,000 elite horse-archers together in a square. Ran Min saw it and led the charge at the Yan army on his horse Zhu Long and wielding a lance in his left hand and a halberd with his right. His troops were so amazed and the soldiers were all inspired by Ran Min's courage and success and all shouted "Wang Sui"(may the emperor live ten thousand years) then Ran Min charged and broke the scattered the Yan front line cavalry killing 300. When the Wei infantry reached the Yan central division of the Chained cavalry. The wei army couldn't break through and never faced such tactic before was in panic. At this time the Yan cavalry from the two ambushed sides pincered the flank of the Wei, the Wei troops broke rank and fled, Ran Min rode his fast horse and manage to escape a far distance but his horse died from overexhaustion and he was captured. Thus the invincible Wei army which crushed the multiple collisions of the north and slaughtered countless nomads was finally brought to a close.

When Ran Ming was brought to Murong Jun, he was scolded,
"You are a subject of Zhao, how could you overthrow your emperor and declare yourself an emperor." Ran Min answered without shame "If barbarians like you could become emperor, then why can't a hero of the central plains like me become emperor"? Murong Jung was furious and ordered Ran Min beaten and locked up, later the rest of Wei is overran and Ran Min and his son was executed. Ending the Ran Wei and his reign of terror.

The Eastern Jin was so surprised that the invincible Ran Min was actually defeated and didn't believe it at first until sending an envoy to Yan and found out the truth.

In this massacre, Ran Min exterminated the Jie ethnicity, greatly finished the last of the Xiongnu (huns) in China, Xiongnu never became a great power again and only the small kingdom of Helian Bobo was xiongnu later. All together his armies have slaughtered over 2 million people and thats not counting the none civilians. It was the first mass instance of ethnic cleansing in the East Asian world. Where the slaughter is absolute.

This post has been edited by warhead: 04 June 2008 - 02:11 PM

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#2 User is offline   Yun

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 12:18 AM

Ran Min was the son of Ran Zhan, a Han rebel who had been taken captive by Shi Hu and then adopted as Shi Hu's son. Thus when Ran Min grew up he and his father were known as Shi Zhan and Shi Min. Shi Zhan was killed in a battle against Liu Yao of the Former Zhao in 328.

When you mention the Tanguts and Yuezhi, are you actually referring to the Qiang and Di? The Tanguts did not exist at this time as an ethnicity, and the ancient Yuezhi were all in Pakistan as the Kushans, except for a minority who remained in Gansu.

I personally don't agree with the linking of Xiongnu with Huns. The Jie are also more likely to be Sogdians than White Huns (the two are not the same). Anyway, a large proportion of the Xiongnu were already massacred by Shi Le after the fall of the Former Zhao in 329. Most of the victims of Ran Min's massacre were Jie, and it was done more out of political insecurity than ethnic hatred. The Jie elite continuously tried to plot against and revolt against Ran Min, so he decided to solve the problem by killing all the Jie. So I think the comparison of him with Hitler might be exaggerated.

For the ethnic origins of the Five Hu, see http://www.chinahist...hp?showtopic=75
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#3 User is offline   Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 01:44 AM

"When you mention the Tanguts and Yuezhi, are you actually referring to the Qiang and Di? The Tanguts did not exist at this time as an ethnicity, and the ancient Yuezhi were all in Pakistan as the Kushans, except for a minority who remained in Gansu."

Yes, I thought the English of Qiang was Tangut.
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#4 User is offline   Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 01:48 AM

"Anyway, a large proportion of the Xiongnu were already massacred by Shi Le after the fall of the Former Zhao in 329. "

All I've herd was the killing of the Liu family, not any other xiongnu.

"Most of the victims of Ran Min's massacre were Jie, and it was done more out of political insecurity than ethnic hatred. "

His action is certainly no different in the planned extermination of the mass. Besides we don't even know whether Hitler himself hated the Jews or simply massacred out of political slogan as well. The result is still the same.
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#5 User is offline   Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 01:59 AM

btw, Yes, I misread the Chinese word of Di for Shi, and assumed it to be Yue Shi. So I should change that to Di.
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#6 User is offline   浪淘音

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 02:35 AM

warhead, on Feb 24 2005, 06:44 AM, said:

"When you mention the Tanguts and Yuezhi, are you actually referring to the Qiang and Di? The Tanguts did not exist at this time as an ethnicity, and the ancient Yuezhi were all in Pakistan as the Kushans, except for a minority who remained in Gansu."

Yes, I thought the English of Qiang was Tangut.
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the tanguts are the DangXiang Qiang, different from the Qiang of this particular era
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#7 User is offline   Sephodwyrm

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 12:36 AM

Anyway, Ran Min should be remembered as one of the greatest destroyers in East Asia. He's much like Helian Bobo IMO, except that Ran Min's actions are very much against certain ethnicities. The Age of Fragmentation is one era in which the numerous ethnicities is brought into a melting pot of butchery, massacres, genocide, war and blood.
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#8 User is offline   lobster

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 03:10 PM

Interesting thing is that I check the section for Ran Min in Jin Shu and I couldn't find info about his mass killings. I'll try to look further.

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"If barbarians like you could become emperor, then why can't a hero of the central plains like me become emperor"? Murong Jung was furious and ordered Ran Min beaten and locked up, later the rest of Wei is overran and Ran Min and his son was executed. Ending the Ran Wei and his reign of terror.

1: Ran Min said he was "a hero of a time", didn't say anthing about of the central plains.

2: Ran Min's son (the hier at least) surrendered to Eastern Jin with his general Jiang Gan.
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#9 User is offline   Sephodwyrm

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 07:08 PM

月氐should be pronounced as ROU4 DI1.
I got this information from Han Shu published in China.
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#10 User is offline   Yun

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 09:19 PM

I find that hard to believe - after all, it's not 月氐 but 月氏 (notice the extra dot in the first one?), and it has been accepted generally for a long time that it is pronounced as Yuezhi.
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#11 User is offline   Sephodwyrm

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 01:23 PM

Well, the character looks like Moon but it is in fact Rou (remember, meaty stuff tend to have that as the root).

Anyway, I just read an article about Ran Min. He's a terrifying warrior to behold, his ferocity probably equals that of Xiang Yu. There has been such descriptions of Ran Min in heavy armor wielding a halberd and a short spear on each hand, charging through the enemy with utmost bravado, his horse kicking up flowers of blood of the enemy's fallen (describing the sheer number of deaths and those trampled by the heavy cavalry). He is able to stir his men to impossible deeds on the battlefield, even against the famed nomad cavalry men, routing them in numerous occasions.

This brutality directed against a particular ethnicity is a result of mutual oppression. It was the Han Chinese that oppressed the nomadic ethnicities and enslaved them. Shi Le was once a slave, and exacted his revenge later on. Shi Hu also greatly brutalized the people he ruled over. The soldiers under Ran Min may have been the first SS of the times. Hardened by oppression, full of hate and this gave them their "invincibility".

Still, the Age of Fragmentation is an era of warfare and death.
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#12 User is offline   kaixin

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 04:06 AM

Nomads have always been the hated enemy since time immemorial. Ran Min is a hero in Chinese tradition.
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#13 User is offline   Yun

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 12:40 PM

Is he? Not in any Chinese tradition that I know of.
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#14 User is offline   Sephodwyrm

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 10:48 PM

Ran Min is not considered as a hero. Instead, he is considered an idiotic hero on par with Xiang Yu.
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#15 User is offline   浪淘音

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 12:05 PM

whether or not he is a hero is irrelevant. He clearly was a great warrior and strategist. it was his passion that ruined him in the end

the implications of someone like Ran Min are enormous on previous conceptions of Chinese thought

it was previously thought that Chinese had no concept of racial phenotype. the fact that Ran Min gave orders to kill any Chinese who had central asian/sogdian features implies other wise
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