[chineseruler]

I often read Nuzhen, Jurchen and Manchus in chinese history text..which seem to be referring to the same people. Just curious as to why the name changes?

[emperorlee]

Nuzhen refers to the tribe's name in chinese. I think, "Jurchen" is in manchurian language.

The name of Manchus was adopted by Huang Taiji after he changed the country's name from Hou Jin to Qing.

[genghis]

Check out the site

http://www.uglychine.../manchurian.htm

In Chinese history, the Manchurians are classified into "Anterior Jurchen" and "Posterior Jurchen". "Anterior Jurchen" would be those Jurchens who defeated the Khitans' Liao Dynasty (AD 907-1125), and set up the Jin or Gold Dynasty (AD 1115-1234) that lasted 119-120 years in northern China. "Posterior Jurchen" was the name first adopted by the Manchus when they rebelled against the Chinese Ming Dynasty. They renamed themselves Manchu in the early 17th cent. In the Turk & Uygur section, we mentioned that the famous writer, Jian Bozan, who committed suicide during the Cultural Revolution, happened to be an ethnic Uygur from Hunan Province. Another famous writer, Lao She, who also committed suicide during the Cultural Revolution, was an ethnic Manchu.


Origin Of Jurchens

The Jurchens are a group of people who lived in Manchuria for many centuries and the tribal name was known since the 7th cent according to one account. The book History Of Jurchen Jin Dynasty, written by Yuan's Prime Minnister Toktoghan (Tuo Tuo), recorded that the ancestors of the Jurchens were from the tribe called Huji or Mohe (Malgal) which was located in the land of the ancient state of Sushen bordering the Japan Sea.

Sushen-shi & Dongyi (Eastern Yi) Aliens
We mentioned the Sushen State in the Korean section. Sushen Statelet first submitted their renowned arrows and bows to Lord Shun during the 25th reign of Lord Shun (reign 2257-2208 BC ?), and Sushen continued to pay pilgrimage to Zhou Dynasty later. (Note Sushen's sound is close to Korean pronounciation of 'Choson'.) Also on record would be a statelet called Guzhu (i.e., lonely bamboo) in southern Manchuria. It was said that Zhou Dynasty founder, Ji Chang, would manage his statelet so well that old people went there for retirement, and two princes of Guzhu Statelet (Mo-tai-shi clan) in southern Manchuria, Bo-yi and Shu-qi, came to live in Zhou land. The barbarians closer to Chinese would be called Shan-rong or Mountain Rongs (aka Beirong or Wuzhong) in the northeastern China. Mountain Rongs, at one time, went across the Yan Principality of Hebei Province to attack Qi Principality in today's Shandong Province; 44 years after that, they attacked Yan again; the Yan-Qi joint armies, under the command of Qi Counsellor Guan Zhong, Marquis Qi Huanggong, and Byron Yan, drove them out and moreover penetrated into the Rong land. Around 664 BC, Yan-Qi joint armies destroyed the Mountain Rong Statelet as well as the Guzhu Statelet. During Warring States time period, the barbarians came to be known as Dong Hu or Eastern Hu people. A Yan Principality General, by the name of Qin-kai, after returning from Donghu as a hostage, would attack Donghu and drive them away for 1000 li distance. Yan built Great Wall and set up Shanggu, Yuyang, You-beiping, Liaoxi and Liaodong prefectures. Sushen tribe was later known as Yilou. Chinese history recorded succeeding names like Huji, Mohe, Bohai and Nuzhen tribes in the same area.

Ancient Chinese had different terms for barbarians in four directions. Dongyi or Yi-of-the-East will include peoples in Manchuria, Korea and Japan. In early times, the Yi was associated with the word 'niao' for bird, and there were eight to nine different 'niao-yi' people in the east. Shang Dynasty people, considered a group of Yi people, were recorded to have treated 'Xuan Niao' (i.e., Black bird, possibly sparrow) as the totem. Manchurian legends as to the birth of their founder had something to do with swallowing the red fruit dropped by a bird. Toba Wei Dynasty, in return for being called the nickname of 'suo lu' (pigtailed enemies), would call southern Chinese by the derogatory name of 'niao yi' (i.e., bird-like aliens) for possibly southern Chinese accents or generic-kind of name for southeastern Chinese and islanders. In later times, the Yi designation would be associated with a word 'dao' for island, pointing to the barbarian peoples in East China Seas. (Both the character 'niao' and 'dao' looked quite close and might have corrupted consecutively during the course of history.) Yi is more an inclusive word to mean aliens. The big Korean school of thought, touched on in prehistory section, claimed that the Koreans were true descendants of the Dongyi people.

Huji & Mohe
At the times of Toba Wei Dynasty, Huji possessed altogether seven tribes. By Sui Dynasty, they were know as Mohe (Malgal). By Tang Dynasty, two tribes, Heisui (black water) and Sumuo, were known. Sumuo sought protection with Koguryo, and after Koguryo's demise in the hands of Tang, became independent and established the State of Po'hai (Palhae) around Dongmoushan Mountains. Po'hai continued for a dozen generations till it was destroyed by the Khitans. Note Bohai (Po'hai) was recorded to have possessed a written language, music and rituals, government and system, and it possessed five big cities, fifteen prefectures and sixty-two zhou (lesser prefectures). The Blackwater Tribe, who dwelled in the ancient Sushen land, also sought protection with Koguryo, and at one time, sent 150,000 troops to fight Tang on behalf of Koguryo. They were defeated by Tang in a place called An'shi. In the Kaiyuan Era of Tang Dynasty, Blackwater Tribe came to pay pilgrimage to Tang and its land was made into Heisui-fu (i.e., Blackwater Governor Office) and its tribal chieftan was conferred the title of 'dudu' or governor-general. Blackwater Tribe was given the Tang family name of 'Li'. After Po'hai became a strong power, this tribe became subordinate to the Sumuo Tribe. During Five Dynasties time period, Khitans took over the Po'hai, i.e., the former Sushen territories. The Blackwater Jurchens who remained in the south were subordinate to the Khitans and were named 'acquaintance Jurchens' or 'cooked Jurchens', while the remaining Jurchens living in the north, near today's Heilongjiang River, would be named 'stranger Jurchens' or 'raw Jurchens'.

Jurchens vs Tungus
The Jurchens are related to the Tungus. The Xianbei-Wuhuan nomads, said to be Tungunzic, were driven to Xianbei and Wuhuan Mountains after they accused the first Hunnic king Modu (Modok) of patricide, and they were later relocated to Liaoning Province by Han Emperor Wudi for sake of segregation from the Huns. Hence, they were called Donghu or Eastern Hu nomads, inheriting an old tribal name that long existed in Zhou times. The important thing to be noted about the earlier Huns or Donghu (Xianbei-Wuhuan) will be that they were living alongside Chinese for hundreds of years and should be deemed semi-sinicized semi-civilized peoples. But the later Khitans or Jurchens or Mongols fared much worse, and those people ate raw meat and did not know how to count their ages.

Chinese records categorically said that "the ancestry of the Manchus can be traced back more than 2,000 years to the Sushen tribe, and later to the Yilou, Huji, Mohe and Ruzhen (Nuzhen) tribes native to the Changbaishan Mountains and the drainage area of the Heilongjiang River in northeast China." Here, the name Sushen would be used for ancient Koreans during Zhou Dynasty time period, Yilou during early Han Dynasty time period, Huji during Toba's Northern Wei Dynasty, Mohe (Malgal) during Sui Dynasty, Bohai (Palhae) during Tang Dynasty, and Ruzhen (Nuzhen) during Song Dynasty.

[Yun]

Since I recently mentioned the theory on 'Donghu' being a transliteration of 'Tungus', it's a good thing I came across this article today. It was originally published in the journal Lishi Yanjiu 《历史研究》 (Historical Studies) in 1995, and I'm now translating part of it into English. Some of the arguments seem quite unconvincing to me, especially the ones about similarities between names. I'd welcome your opinions on this.

A Study of the Origins of the Jurchen People 女真族系源流考异
Zhao Zhenji 赵振绩

Historians of the Jurchen have had three theories about their origins:

1) The Jurchen are descended from the Dongyi 东夷

2) The Jurchen belong to the Tungus family

3) The Jurchen are descended from the Donghu 东胡

This writer will propose a new way of looking at the problem.

Part 1 - The Ethnic Background of the Jurchen

1) Dongyi Theory

The Jurchen are descended from the Sushen 肃慎 of the pre-Qin period and the Yilou 挹娄 of the Han and Three Kingdoms. The Sushen lived to the north of the Buxian 不咸 Mountains (present-day Changbai 长白 Mountains), with the sea to their east. In summer they lived in trees, and in winter in caves. Their chieftainship was hereditary. The Yilou were similar to the Fuyu 夫余 (Puyo), but their language was different. They had no overall ruler, with each village and tribe having its own chief. They lived in the mountains and forests, often in caves, and reared many pigs for food. They also made clothing out of pig skin. They liked to wear mink fur, such that mink was called Yilou mink in that area. 'Yilou' was alternatively pronounced as 'Wuji' 勿吉 (or 'Woju' 沃沮). The Mohe 靺鞨 (Malgal) were not descended from the Wuji, but rather from the Mohefu 莫贺弗 [according to the Wei Shu and Sui Shu]. The chiefs of the Heishui Mohe were thus known as Da (Great) Mofumanduo 大莫夫瞒咄.

The real ancestors of the Jurchen were called the Haoshi 号室 tribe, the Anchegu 安车骨 (Anchuhu 按出虎) tribe, and the Funie 拂涅 tribe. The Haoshi tribe was probably descended from the ancient Sushen. The Anchegu and Funie lived within the territory of the Fuyu kingdom during the Wei and Jin dynasties, and thus were not recorded in Chinese historical accounts. The Northern Wei dynastic history contains a section on the history of the Wuji. The Wuji had many branches, and the Funie and Anchegu were two of them. 'Funie' is an alternative pronunciation of 'Wuji'. For these reasons, Sun Jinji 孙进己 theorised that the Jurchen were descended from the Sushen, Wuji and Mohe peoples.

2) Tungus Theory

This theory originated in 1820, when the French orientalist Abel Romusat suggested that 'Donghu' was a transliteration of 'Tungus', the generic name for the Siberian (Xianbei?) and Manchu peoples. In 1831, the German Klaproth expressed his agreement with this theory. But later, the geographer Ritter disagreed. In 1895, the British sinologist Parker wrote "A Thousand-year History of the Tartars", and in Volume 2 (on the Xianbei), he argued that the ancestors of the Koreans and Manchus were the Tungus. 'Tungus' means 'pigs' or 'pig-eaters' in Turkic. The Ostaik who live in the upper reaches of the Ket River are known as Tungus to both the Russians and the Turkic Yakut. The Japanese scholar Bainiao Kuji 白鸟库吉 (translation of his name from Chinese characters) agreed with this, and published "A Study of the Donghu" 《东胡民族考》 in the 1920s. From then on, scholars worldwide accepted the theory that the Jurchen were Tungus, in place of the traditional Chinese dynastic histories' view that the Jurchen were descended from the Dongyi. However, in recent times scholars have begun to question the Tungus theory because 'pig-eaters' is too vague a term to indicate that it refers only to the Jurchen. There were lots of ethnic groups in northeast China, including both the Dongyi and Donghu, who ate pork.

3) Donghu Theory

Li Xuezhi 李学智 has already expressed his theory that the Jurchen were originally known as the Ruzhe Shishuo 如者室说, and that they sprang from the Xianbei. This writer proposes that the Jurchen of the Five Dynasties and Song were descended from the Nuzhen 奴真 of the Northern Wei and the Na 拏 of the early Tang, and that these were related to the Xianbei.

Nuzhen: In the 370s, the Former Qin ruler Fu Jian led an army of 200,000 to attack and conquer the Dai state of the Tuoba Xianbei. The Dubai 独白 and Dugu 独孤 tribes, under their chieftain Liu Kuren 刘库仁, fled to Yunzhong 云中 (present-day Datong). The 6-year-old heir to the Tuoba Xianbei rulership, Tuoba Gui, was given shelter by the Dugu tribe, while Fu Jian appointed Liu Kuren and Liu Weichen 刘卫辰 to govern the area for the Former Qin. In 383, Fu Jian was defeated at the Battle of the Fei River, and in the same month Liu Kuren was murdered by Murong Wen and succeeded by his younger brother Liu Juan 刘眷. Two years later, Kuren's son Liu Xian 刘显 killed Liu Juan and took over. In 386, Tuoba Gui was crowned as emperor of the new (Northern) Wei state, ... and Liu Xian fled to Mayi 马邑 (in Shanxi). Liu Xian's kinsman Liu Nuzhen 刘奴真 then surrendered to the Northern Wei. ...

According to the Wei Shu, 'Nuzhen' 奴真 means 'water', and is a common name for both tribes and chiefs. ... The Wei Shu also records that Liu Kuren's tribe, the Dugu, were descended from the Xiongnu. Yao Weiyuan 姚薇元 suggested in the past that 'Dugu' was an alternate form of 'Tuge' 屠各, the Xiongnu aristocratic clan that had adopted the surname of Liu 刘, members of which also ruled the Former Zhao state. This writer further suggests that 'Tuge' is an alternate form of 'Tuhe' 徒河, which is the branch of the Xianbei from which the Murong 慕容 were descended. The Liu (Dugu) were also known as Tiefu 铁弗, a term which meant that they had Xiongnu fathers and Xianbei mothers. Thus it is reasonable to say that the Dugu were at least half Xianbei.

Na: According to one account, the Jurchen were originally called the Zhulizhen 朱理真, and were descendants of either Zhu Meng 朱蒙, the founding father of the Koreans, or the Heishui Mohe 黑水靺鞨. They had lived to the east of the Huntong 混同 River and at the source of the Yalu 鸭绿 River in the Changbai Mountains for generations, and had 72 tribes.

In the Tang, they began to use the name of Na for themselves, and by the end of the Tang their numbers were great, with 30 chieftains each with their own family name. Some of them also had Chinese equivalents. These 30 were: Wanyan 完颜(Wang 王), Chizhan 赤盏 (Zhang 张), Nalan 那懒 (Gao 高), Paimoshen 排磨申, Dujin 独斤, Aodun 奥敦, Heshilie 纥石列, Tudan 秃丹, Poyouman 婆由满, Niangwan 酿剜, Mengwan 梦剜, Tuoman 陀馒, Wendixian 温迪掀, Diaosuo 掉索, Aowuju 拗兀居, Nimangu 尼曼古, Zhaojiao 棹角, Afanbomulu 阿番孛木律, Wutanbomulu 兀毯孛木律, Yuyulong 遇雨隆, Huangwu 晃兀, Duding 独顶, Adie 阿迭, Wuling 乌陵, Pucha 蒲察, Wuyan 乌延, Tudan 徒单 (different characters from the earlier Tudan), Pusan 仆散, Wendun 温敦, and Panggu 庞古. ...

The later Jurchen were mainly made up of the Sheng 生 (Raw) Jurchen and Changbai Mountains Jurchen, and the 30 families of Nuzhen were Changbai Mountains Jurchen who called themselves the Na. They included the Wanyan and Nalan. According to the Liao Shi, the Changbai Jurchen were later absorbed by the Raw Jurchen.

Jurchen: The name 'Jurchen' is first seen in the Wudai Shi, and could have developed from 'Nuzhen' 奴真. ... The Uyghurs 回纥 of the Tang dynasty were also known as the Oghuz 乌古氏, and originated from north Asia from the same ancestors as those of the Wuhuan 乌桓 (Wuwan 乌丸) and Kumoxi 库莫奚 (Xi 奚) in the Mongolian region. It can be argued that the Nuzhen (Jurchen) are related to the Uyghur, and both came from the Wuhuan branch of the Donghu family. The Wuhouqin 乌后秦 (Wuguzhen 乌古真/Wugu 乌古) River of the Three Kingdoms, from which the Uyghurs get their name, was known as the Tuhuzhen 土护真 River in the Tang... and as the Nugumoli 女古没里 River in the Liao [this was an important river in the Khitan homeland]. 'Wuhou' 乌侯 is a form of 'Wugu' 乌古, while 'Tuhu' 土护 could be a form of 'Tuhe 徒河/Tuge' 屠各. Based on these connections, 'Nugu' 女古 during the Liao could be a variant form of 'Nuzhen/Jurchen'. In the Khitan-Mongol language, 'water' is called 'wu' 乌 [just like 'nuzhen' 奴真 means 'water' in the Wei Shu]. In ancient times, 'hou' 侯 and 'hu' 护 were also variant forms of 'he' 河(river)... Since the Oghuz had the same Donghu roots as the Wuhuan and Kumoxi, and the Khitan were descended from the Xianbei [who were also Donghu], therefore the Khitan and the Jurchen were closely related.

[hansioux]

Quote

Uyghurs of the Tang dynasty were also known as the Oghuz, and originated from north Asia from the same ancestors as those of the Wuhuan (Wuwan) and Kumoxi (Xi) in the Mongolian region. It can be argued that the Nuzhen (Jurchen) are related to the Uyghur, and both came from the Wuhuan branch of the Donghu family. The

Oh my god! I see what you mean Yun.

That absolutely can NOT be argued. What are they trying to link from Oghuz to Tunguz for? Oghuz is one of the forms of Turkish language sound changed. It how ever can not change to Tunguz.

[Yun]

His argument was that the Uyghurs/Oghuz were named after the Wugu River, which is in northeast China. He wasn't the first to make this argument - it was from Li Futong's 李符桐 "History of the Uighurs" 《回鹘史》. But I agree that it's very flimsy - a similarity in names is hardly enough to draw a direct connection.

[浪淘音]

theory that Manchu/Tungus, or korean or especially japanese(yayoi/jomon) are descended from the Dong Yi is absolutely absurd

the dong yi were proto Chinese that lived on the coastal areas from the Yangzi jiang to the eastern yellow river, specifically the swamps of shandong that divided the central plains from the coast of that penninsula. the longshan, dawenkou and possibly even the hemedu neolithic sites are attributed to Dong Yi because of the bird totem, the phoenix totem came from dawenkou (which is why the phoenix is revered by Chinese) the four direction Yi-Rong-Di-Man referred to how the Xia people looked at their neighbors. there was no "Chinese" identity at the time so it is incorrect to assume that the Dong Yi were "foreigners" who lived east of Chinese, they lived east of the Xia people(who might be even Rong related)

Nuzhen/Manchu, as most theorize, have their origins north of Liaodong, possibly near lake baikal or the amur river, definitely did not have anything to do with the Dong Yi that had lived in prehistoric China.

Korean neolithic age begins around 3000 B.C and only entered the later neolithic around 1800 B.C. by this time, the advanced cultures of China (the xia and dong yi were interacting IE the Shang dynasty). unlike the paleolithic inhabitants of Korea, the neolithic inhabitants are Koreans' earliest ancestors. Korean claim on Dong Yi ancestry is just plain false

[hansioux]

Yun, on Jan 10 2005, 05:57 AM, said:

His argument was that the Uyghurs/Oghuz were named after the Wugu River, which is in northeast China. He wasn't the first to make this argument - it was from Li Futong's 李符桐 "History of the Uighurs" 《回鹘史》. But I agree that it's very flimsy - a similarity in names is hardly enough to draw a direct connection.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See, that's the problem, a LARGE problem with a lot of Chinese historians after Han dynasty. That they start to forget a lot of times names are simply translation from another language.

Uyghurs means "United" in the Turkic language, and that's it. It was serveral different races and tribes united against Tujue. Period.

[Sephodwyrm]

Source please? You seem overly confident about historical theories and how that should define us when many scholars are still wrecking their heads and minds to find out and question similar topics to no end.

[Yun]

You could transfer this debate to the thread on the origins of the Uyghurs: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1650

[Yun]

Back to the Jurchen: Zhu Xueyuan's book "The Origins of China's Northern Ethnicities" 《中国北方诸族的源流》 suggests that the Jurchen and the Magyars who make up the main population of Hungary share a common ancestor - the Malgal (Mohe 靺鞨) of China's northeast ('Manchuria'). According to Zhu, a large part of the Malgal fled westwards after being defeated during the Tang campaigns against Koguryo. Yihesan has previously said on this forum ( http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=537 ) that the prevailing view on the Magyars is that they are descended from Finno-Ugrian peoples east of the Ural Mountains.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Well, I know there is proof/documentation about the Jurchens transition into the Manchus, meaning, there's documentation about Jurchens becoming Manchus, but is there any proof of the Malgal becoming the Jurchens?


-Muchas Gracias GJ

[浪淘音]

Gubuk Janggoon, on Mar 3 2005, 03:45 AM, said:

I think this thread works in this forum, but if anyone thinks otherwise, feel free to speak up.
Well, I know there is proof/documentation about the Jurchens transition into the Manchus, meaning, there's documentation about Jurchens becoming Manchus, but is there any proof of the Malgal becoming the Jurchens? 
-Muchas Gracias  GZ

no, there isn't

because the NuZhens before their rise to power were divided into two groups whose relationship was shakey at best. the "cooked" or Shu NuZhen and the "Wild" or Sheng NuZhen. Their lifestyles were quite different. the cooked NuZhen were quite passive and even hermit like by nomad standards while the "Wild NuZhen" were extremely warlike. Furthermore, the cooked NuZhen lived outside of Kogyruo's borders while the WIld NuZhen didn't even go south of the amur river until 1000 AD at least

i would assume the Malgal were the ancestors of the "Cooked Jurchen" but then again the theory of their relationship could just be mumbo jumbo. the first time i heard this sort of theory, it was Korean nationalists trying to take credit (since a large amount of kogyruo's population was Malgal) for the Jin dynasty

[Gubook Janggoon]

Interesting...it sort of interested me b/c a lot of sites seem to say that the Nuzhen developed from the Mohoe..but there didn't seem to be any real proof.

[Karakhan]

The Jurchen classification is sometimes too broad. But in general there was always three kind of Tungus races.. Southwest, Southeast and Northern.

Southwest was primarily Tungus speaking people in Liaoning and Jilin area, some of Heilongjiang, They are probably the ones that can be considered Malgals, and the Jurchen of the Jin Dynasty, they were the closest to China and the biggest in population.

Southeast primarily is around the Amur river, mostly the lower area also in Heilongjiang and in Russian Far East. They also appear in Chinese and Korean sources under various names (sorry I do not know it at the moment). they were notable by their hunting and fishing life style, they were not nomadic or horse riding like the others. They had some conflict with the South western ones too but over all isolated deep into the woods. Linguistic similarites so far make them close with Southwest but probably unintelligible. I do think some extended into Northern tips of N.Korea.

Probably least likely to be Malgal is the Northern group. They were nomadic and cover a vast area, usually from Khinggan mountains (by Russia/Mongolia/China border) and covering the Russian Far East and Eastern Siberia (Siberia and RFE is two different regions btw). So far from what I read, only time they are mentioned in Chinese sources is the Solons who were very Mongolized. The group in general has some physical differences from the other two and uses long vowels like Mongolian. Because they are far north, they are probably least likely to be the people you are looking for a connection to.