17 replies to this topic

[Belken]

There have been credible evidence of what the Khitan looked like(hairstyle,helmet etc) by usage of paintings and old sketches from the Sung era. Same goes for the Mongols as there were also paintings and sketches from that era when the Mongols fought the Southern Sung.

But what is really obscure is whether the Jurchen of the Jin dynasty really wore those helmets with those very long furry things at each side of the cap/helmet. In modern day books where there are drawings of the Jurchen,almost all the Jurchen drawings show them wearing that hat. And so does the Legend of Condor Heroes fictional show.

But in the case of the Jurchens,they don't provide pictorial evidence from the past to confirm that they really looked like that. All the books have are that Sung era sketch of that Jurchen man carrying a bow next to a 'dugout'.

So my question is ;did they really wear those furry things?I need that info for a college assignment.

[Wú Fēi]

Can you read in Centerian/Chinese language?
Try that: http://www.pep.com.cn/ljy/index.htm .
Jin (Jurchen ethnical group) = 金
Liao (Kihtan ethnical group) = 辽
Yuan (Mongolian ethnical group) = 元

[Belken]

Okay.So according to this picture, http://www.pep.com.c...06/ca512562.htm ,
the high level Jurchens didn't really wear that very long furry "sideburns" on both sides.

And in this picture http://www.pep.com.c...06/ca512526.htm , obviously the long furry sideburn wasn't what the Jin officials and troops commonly wore either.

I'm confused why the book A General History of China 6: Song,Liao-Jin and Yuan dynasties always had scenes of the Jurchen wearing that furry sideburn hat. That means the artist was wrong?

[Yun]

I'm confused why the book A General History of China 6: Song,Liao-Jin and Yuan dynasties always had scenes of the Jurchen wearing that furry sideburn hat. That means the artist was wrong?

If you're referring to the series published by Canfonian in Singapore, then you should note that the standard of illustration in those books is generally very poor, and the English translation is also terrible. I would advise using them very very carefully, just like you wouldn't use an RTK lianhuantu comic for info on Three Kingdoms weapons.

But it's true that those 'raccoon tails' have become a common image to indicate northern nomadic peoples - not just for the Jurchen actually, but also in popular illustrations of Xiongnu, Murong Xianbei, and Khitan that I've seen. I don't know where the image came from - perhaps from Chinese opera costumes?

Here's a typical depiction of a Jurchen general, from a modern Chinese computer game:

[HaSY]

I also have the same book....................
In my A General History of China 8,there were also scene which the Qing soldiers wore lamellar or scale armor,not brigadine armor.....so is that scene accurate?

If the English translation is bad...then does it mean that its content is not historically accurate?

[Karakhan]

But it's true that those 'raccoon tails' have become a common image to indicate northern nomadic peoples - not just for the Jurchen actually, but also in popular illustrations of Xiongnu, Murong Xianbei, and Khitan that I've seen. I don't know where the image came from - perhaps from Chinese opera costumes?
[/url]

Ah now I know what he's talking about.. and you are definitely right, I saw something like that in this one Chinese series..

[Yun]

If the English translation is bad...then does it mean that its content is not historically accurate?

Not really, because the series was originally published in Chinese in the PRC. However, it was not written by historians, and was meant for a mass readership of mostly children. The artists that they hired tended to have little real knowledge of historical conditions in ancient China, and drew based on their imagination or whatever pictures they could find.

So the inaccuracy is more in the area of illustrations, not info. And some of the artists produced work that looks like children's doodles.

Besides, the translators were Singaporeans who got the pronunciations of some words wrong because their Chinese was not much better than their English.

In my A General History of China 8,there were also scene which the Qing soldiers wore lamellar or scale armor,not brigadine armor.....so is that scene accurate?

It should be ok since the Manchus used both kinds of armour at the beginning.

[Wú Fēi]

Belken, check out this picture:


In the webpage you mentioned http://www.pep.com.c...06/ca512562.htm , there was a woman. In my picuture above, there was a man, perhaps a soldier. The man and the woman are in the same painting actually, according to the introduction in the webpages. However, though the painting was drawn in Jin Dynasty (金朝), the content of the painting was telling a story happened in about the late period of Eastern Han Dynasty (东汉) as well as the early time of Three Kingdoms era.

[Snafu]

I agree with Yun. The animal tails on the helmet is basically just artistic shorthand for "Barbarian", and shouldn't be taken as historical fact. It's sort of like horned Viking helmets. In real life Vikings didn't wear them, but many artists still portray them that way, even though it's historically wrong.

Very nice site Wu Fei. It's nice to see some paintings of Jurchens. I haven't seen many. There are plenty of paintings of Khitans and Mongols, but Jurchen pictures seem rare.

[Yun]

However, though the painting was drawn in Jin Dynasty (金朝), the content of the painting was telling a story happened in about the late period of Eastern Han Dynasty (东汉) as well as the early time of Three Kingdoms era.

I'm guessing you're referring to the scroll of the story of Cai Wenji: http://www.radcliffe...lery/intro.html
. It is also one of our main sources (besides the Wuzing Zongyao) of the horse armour of the Song and Jin:

[MING-LOYALIST]

Jurchen, Khitan, XiongNu, Xianbei, Shiwei, Mongol, Manchu all these peoples had similiar appearance, most had some part of their scalp shaved, but only the Jurchen and Manchu enforced head shaving to Han people.

Also only the Manchu had uniformality, that is every one had the same shave. Jurchens had a different shave, they had two 'pigtails' instead of just one.



Dipection of Khitan.




XiongNu


Manchus somewhat similiar to Jurchen.





I think this a Mongol style.

Edited by MING-LOYALIST, 25 April 2006 - 04:47 AM.

[HaSY]

if you recall one of the scenes in kang xi di guo which Emperor Kangxi in his later years fought with the Mongols under Gaerdan..............
do you notice that there are other regular soldiers who are dressed in blue colour manchu clothing?
Are they from the 8 banner or green standard?
This is because I would like to know if the battle mentioned above was fought entirely by 8 Banner Army or the multi-ethnic army.

[Wú Fēi]

Don't trust dramas too much as historical records. Sometimes the necessary distortion for art may bring us serious mistakes instead of knowledge.

[hansioux]

Orz... was that supposed to be 蕭峰？？？ I hope not... that's not a very convincing one.