[poirot]

Yun, on May 23 2005, 10:49 AM, said:

The author of "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms".

I have just read today some material that suggests that the real Empty Fortress tactic was used in an early Tang battle with the Tubo (Tibetans), while the "borrowing arrows" tactic was used in Zhang Xun's defence of Yongqiu against An Lushan's rebel troops.

I believe Zhang Xun was a true military genius, and the savior of the Jiang Huai region from the An Shi Rebellion. And his "borrowing arrow" tactic during the defense against rebel troops was real, recorded history. Zhang Xun's defiant stance gave Tang generals such as Guo Ziyi the time to rally troops to attack An Lu Shan.

Oh, Zhang Xun's clever tactic to kill the rebel general deserve recognition: The rebel general had several doubles dressed like him, to avoid assassinations, etc. Zhang Xun let one of his lieutanents shoot an empty arrow into the enemy camp, signifying that he ran out of arrows. The rebel scout handed the empty arrow to the real rebel general, who became arrow fodder for Zhang Xun's best archer, General Nan Jiyun.

This post has been edited by poirot: 27 June 2005 - 02:53 AM

[someguy44]

Well, the borrowing of the arrows event did technically happened, but it didn't involve Zhuge Liang at all. I believe that fog was a factor in it as well, but it wasn't predicted like it it was in the novel. Zhou Yu was really the one who "borrowed" the arrows, but it was never planned. Cao Cao ordered his army to shoot at a ship (or was it a small fleet of ships) that Zhou Yu commanded. Zhou Yu realizing that he was getting arrows for free (in the midst of the fog) order the ship(s) to turn around and basically get more arrows. At the end of all this, Zhou Yu came out with that taunt for Cao Cao (simliar to the one Zhuge Liang gave to Cao Cao in the novel at the time of the event).

[Yun]

The Pei Songzhi annotation to the Sanguo Zhi carries a quotation from the Wei Lue (a now-lost text) that credits the arrow incident to Sun Quan. During Cao Cao's attack on Ruxu in 213, Sun Quan went in a large ship to observe Cao's troops. Cao Cao had his archers and crossbowmen shoot volleys at Sun Quan's ship, which covered one side of Sun Quan's ship with arrows and bolts. The weight of these arrows and bolts put Sun's ship in danger of capsizing, but he calmly ordered the ship's crew to turn the other side to Cao Cao's army. With both sides now covered in arrows, the ship achieved stability and was able to head back to Sun's base.

The true story of Zhang Xun's arrow-borrowing at Yongqiu took place in 756. The city was being besiged by An Lushan's general Linghu Chao, and had run out of arrows. Zhang Xun had more than 1,000 straw men made and dressed in black clothes. That night, he had these straw men lowered with ropes from the city walls, to mislead the enemy into thinking that the garrison was making a raid. The besieging army showered the straw men with arrows and did not realise the trick until the straw men had several tens of thousands of arrows stuck in them. Zhang Xun's men then pulled the straw men back into the city and obtained all the arrows. Thereafter, Zhang Xun repeated the trick and the enemy simply laughed and no longer shot arrows at the straw men. Having lulled them into complacency, Zhang Xun lowered 500 real troops from the walls, who charged into the enemy camp and drove them out. Linghu Chao had to set fire to his camp and retreat, and Zhang's men pursued them for several tens of li.

[Linghu Chao regrouped and launched a second siege on Yongqiu, but over the next few months Zhang Xun's 1,000 or so defenders beat back every attack by tens of thousands of rebel troops. It was only when the rebel general Yang Chaozong tried attacking Ningling (55km east of Yongqiu) with 20,000 men to cut off Zhang Xun's route of withdrawal, that Zhang pulled out from Yongqiu and fell back to Ningling. Yang Chaozong's attack on Ningling was then defeated by Zhang Xun and Xu Yuan (the prefect of Suiyang) with a heavy loss of over 10,000 men. In early 757, Suiyang was attacked by 130,000 rebel troops, and at Xu Yuan's request Zhang Xun led his 3,000 troops from Ningling to reinforce Xu's 3,800 in Suiyang. Thus began the famous siege of Suiyang, which fell only after Zhang Xun had exhausted all his ingenious tricks and the garrison had resorted to cannibalism to survive. Read more about Zhang Xun here: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1430 ]

[青文景武剑]

i suppose crossbow is more powerful and more effective than bow

[someguy44]

Yun, on Jun 29 2005, 06:46 AM, said:

The Pei Songzhi annotation to the Sanguo Zhi carries a quotation from the Wei Lue (a now-lost text) that credits the arrow incident to Sun Quan. During Cao Cao's attack on Ruxu in 213, Sun Quan went in a large ship to observe Cao's troops. Cao Cao had his archers and crossbowmen shoot volleys at Sun Quan's ship, which covered one side of Sun Quan's ship with arrows and bolts. The weight of these arrows and bolts put Sun's ship in danger of capsizing, but he calmly ordered the ship's crew to turn the other side to Cao Cao's army. With both sides now covered in arrows, the ship achieved stability and was able to head back to Sun's base.

The true story of Zhang Xun's arrow-borrowing at Yongqiu took place in 756. The city was being besiged by An Lushan's general Linghu Chao, and had run out of arrows. Zhang Xun had more than 1,000 straw men made and dressed in black clothes. That night, he had these straw men lowered with ropes from the city walls, to mislead the enemy into thinking that the garrison was making a raid. The besieging army showered the straw men with arrows and did not realise the trick until the straw men had several tens of thousands of arrows stuck in them. Zhang Xun's men then pulled the straw men back into the city and obtained all the arrows. Thereafter, Zhang Xun repeated the trick and the enemy simply laughed and no longer shot arrows at the straw men. Having lulled them into complacency, Zhang Xun lowered 500 real troops from the walls, who charged into the enemy camp and drove them out. Linghu Chao had to set fire to his camp and retreat, and Zhang's men pursued them for several tens of li.

[Linghu Chao regrouped and launched a second siege on Yongqiu, but over the next few months Zhang Xun's 1,000 or so defenders beat back every attack by tens of thousands of rebel troops. It was only when the rebel general Yang Chaozong tried attacking Ningling (55km east of Yongqiu) with 20,000 men to cut off Zhang Xun's route of withdrawal, that Zhang pulled out from Yongqiu and fell back to Ningling. Yang Chaozong's attack on Ningling was then defeated by Zhang Xun and Xu Yuan (the prefect of Suiyang) with a heavy loss of over 10,000 men. In early 757, Suiyang was attacked by 130,000 rebel troops, and at Xu Yuan's request Zhang Xun led his 3,000 troops from Ningling to reinforce Xu's 3,800 in Suiyang. Thus began the famous siege of Suiyang, which fell only after Zhang Xun had exhausted all his ingenious tricks and the garrison had resorted to cannibalism to survive. Read more about Zhang Xun here: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1430 ]

You are right. It was Sun Quan. I got the two mixed up. cheers.

[Zhou Yu]

CARDINAL009, on May 18 2005, 10:28 PM, said:

Mr. Yun,

Presume what you imply is 90%+ true.

My "top view" conclusion is that Liu Bei didn't have the qnty of talent comparable to Cao Cao. 

This Cardinal believes that [... "No man can be everything to every man ( & women)".] 

Q:  How many ppl do each of us know can perform the following (grand strategy, civil administration, politics, technology, military organization and military command
{Using Talents & Military Strategy}) ?

///
ZGL did an admirable job to assist  the [House of Shu] in keeping the House of Wei away from them for a greater # of yrs.

Q:  Why did Sima cried when Zhuge Liang passed on?

///
One more qstn: What [copy of Sanguo Zhi and othr books on Three Kingdoms)
did you use as reference?

Thks. f/  your pov.

wow.... that pretty much sums it up lol but there is something that you forgot...which is his judgement.... i say this because if he would have lived a little longer jiang wei could have been AMAZING and to think zhuge was the only one to notice his potintial.

[青文景武剑]

at chibi, when he allianced with wu

[iwanenator]

青文景武, on Jun 30 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

i suppose crossbow is more powerful and more effective than bow

on the contrary, it is weaker.... naturally cross bow is smaller and the more complex mechanism plus smaller 'string' result in smaller energy.....

[mzrkyh10]

do you guys know that the empty fort strategy is been used? in the segoku period, i know it is off topic, Tokugawa uses this tatic when he reaches his castle and confuse t he coming generals. i forgot thier names and tokugawa was outnumbered

[Ma Su]

mzrkyh10, on 27 November 2009 - 04:02 AM, said:

do you guys know that the empty fort strategy is been used? in the segoku period, i know it is off topic, Tokugawa uses this tatic when he reaches his castle and confuse t he coming generals. i forgot thier names and tokugawa was outnumbered

Probably not a huge surprise, I imagine variations have been used throughout the world.