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How Su Qin established the Six States Alliance Its strengths, and also its weaknesses Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 03:23 AM

Su Qin (苏秦) had previously tried to persuade the state of Qin (秦) to embark on conquering all the rival states. However, King Hui Wen of Qin (秦惠文王) had just recently executed Shang Yang (商鞅) and had no liking for such consultants.

Returning home, Su Qin endured another year of hardship devoting himself to further studies, begged and borrowed funds and travelled to the State of Zhao (赵) with a new proposal for the Six States to ally against Qin. He was unsuccessful there, and went on to the State of Yan (燕), where he had more success, and the beginning of his (short-lived) brilliant career.

I would like to examine how Su Qin persuaded the rulers of the Six States into the alliance, and analyse why the alliance eventually failed. Was the failure due to the nature of the alliance? Or was it due to Su Qin's death?

Though Su Qin lost favour with some rulers before his demise, he still had some influence. Could he have made a comeback, with Zhang Yi (张仪) complementing his plans secretly? Or was he dooming his own plan by planting Zhang Yi in the court of Qin?

Your opinions, please.
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This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 12 April 2005 - 01:11 AM

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#2 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 03:46 AM

1. Persuading Yan (燕)

After being rebuffed prime minister of Zhao, Lord Feng Yang (奉阳君) who was the younger brother of Marquis Su, ruler of Zhao (赵肃侯), Su Qin went to the state of Yan.

He exhausted his funds while waiting to see the ruler, and only survived because a native took pity on him and supported him. Su Qin finally found a chance to meet the ruler of Yan when the latter went out on a tour.

Fortunately for Su Qin, Duke Wen of Yan (燕文公) had heard of Su Qin after his earlier visit to Qin and long wanted to meet him.

Su Qin first identified to the ruler the characteristics of his state:
(1) east facing Korea (朝鲜) and LiaoDong (辽东)
(2) north facing LinHu (林胡) and LouFan (楼烦)
(3) west facing YunZhong (云中) and JiuYuan (九原)
(4) south facing LuTuo (粶沱) and Yi river (易水)
strengths:
(1) territorial area of 2000 miles
(2) several hundred thousands of armoured soldiers (this was probably exaggerated and did not reflect the true military strength).
(3) six hundred chariots
(4) four thousand cavalry
(5) years of supplies
(6) southern flank protected by JieShi (碣石) mountain and Yan Men (鴈门) pass
(7) advantage at ZaoLü (枣栗) to the north which provide ample provisions

Next, he pointed out that the relative peace in Yan was due to Zhao protecting its flank from Qin. If Yan were to threaten the rear of Zhao while Zhao and Qin fought, Yan would be undermining its own security.
He basically told Yan that its policy of ceding land to Qin and hostility to Zhao was foolish. Su Qin proposed that Yan allied with Qin for mutual protection instead.

The ruler of Yan was moved, but feared Zhao would not agree.

Su Qin volunteered to go to Zhao on the diplimatic mission. Marquis Wen of Yan agreed, and provided him with the credentials, entourage and transportation as well as expenses.

A stroke of luck for Su Qin on his trip back to the State of Zhao was that Lord Feng Yan who opposed him just passed away.

[next, getting Zhao (赵) into the alliance ...]
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#3 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 04:06 AM

2. Persuading Zhao (赵)

Marquis Su of Zhao received Su Qin personally this time as he was an official ambassador of Yan, and even humbly asked him for advice.

Su Qin began by pointing out security of a state depend on settling the populace, and that in turn depend on external relations with other states. At the moment, Zhao was caught between the states of Qin and Qi (齐). Allying with either would give its populace no peace.

Su Qin promised the Zhao marquis that if the latter heed his advice, he would obtain from:
(1) the State of Yan, lands producing felt (毡), pelt (裘), hounds (狗) and steeds (马)
(2) the State of Qi, lands producing salt and marine products
(3) the State of Chu (楚), lands producing tangerines and pomelos
(4) the States of Hand Wei, cities producing income
and lands to confer on his relatives.

Su Qin pointed out that in the past, the Five Hegemonists and the founding kings of Zhou had to obtain their wealth through fighting. Su Qin was offering similar gains at less expenses.

If Zhao allied with Qin, Qin would invade Han and Wei.
If Zhao allied with Qi, Qi would weaken Wei and Chu.
The weakened Wei would give up its territories around the Yellow River (河外) to Qin.
The weakened Han would give up Yi Yang (宜阳) to Qin.
These would cut off routes to Shang Jun (上郡) (a strategic location covetted by Wei and Qin but military significance unclear).
Chu would hence be weakened, and Zhao would be isolated.
Su Qin urged the marquis of Zhao to consider these factors seriously.

Should Qin attack ZhiDao (轵道), NanYang (南阳) of Han would be threatened. Should NanYang fall to Qin, the capital of Zhou (周) would be open, and Zhao would be exposed. Qin would target PuYang (濮阳) of the state of Wèi (卫) to control the Qi river (淇水), and Qi would be forced to submit to Qin. These gains for Qin in ShanDong region would open the state of Zhao open to attack. All Qin needed to do would be to cross the Yellow river and Zhang river (漳水), and occupy FanWu (番吾), and their troops would be fighting Zhao below the walls of HanDan (邯郸), the capital of Zhao itself.

His identification of Zhao's characteristics:
(1) strongest state in Shan Dong (山东)
(2) two thousand miles of territory
(3) hundreds of thousands of troops (Zhao's troops were famed for martial prowess)
(4) thousands of chariots
(5) tens of thousands of cavalry
(6) ten years of supplies
(7) strategic geographical advantages provided by ChangShan (常山) to the west, Yellow river and Zhang River (漳水) to the south, and Qing river (清河) to the east.
(8) it has the state of Yan to the north, which was weak and pose no threat but serve as a useful barrier.

He flattered the ruler by saying the greatest threat to the State of Qin was the army of Zhao. Yet the reason why Qin dared not go all out against Zhao was due to the presence of neighbouring Han (韩) and Wei (魏), who might attack from the flanks.

However, while shielding Zhao's southern flank, Han and Wei lacked natural terrains as defences. They would not be able to withstand should Qin make a concerted effort, like a small silkworm chewing the large mulberry leaves, to conquer these two states, and after they fell, Zhao would be open for invasion.

Su Qin pointed to the ancient emperors who had far less territories but commanded the realms under heaven: Yao (尧) had less than 300 mu (亩) of territuroes (6 mu approx = 1 acre), Shun (舜) had even less, Yü's (禹) tribe was less than a hundred strong, Tang, founder of Shang (商汤) and King Wu who founded Zhou (周武王) had troops less than 3,000 and chariots less than 300. Their successes were due to using correct strategy in managing their states. A wise ruler must externally assess his foes' strengths and weaknesses, internally determine his followers' capabilities and virtues, so that victory could be decided even before actual engagements with the enemy. A wise ruler must not be fooled by words of underlings.

Su Qin had estimated the size of territories of the various lords to be five times of Qin, and the combined populace of various states to be more than ten times of Qin. Should the Six State combine forces against Qin, Qin would be force to cede territories to sue for peace. Once that was done, Qin would disintegrate internally. Su Qin asked rhetorically whether the ruler of Zhao would prefer to destroy another or be destroyed himself.

On those who advocated allying with Qin, these alliances cost the states dearly in terms of tributes and lands to Qin. The advocates would be rewarded by their own lords and enjoy living in luxury, but the moment Qin revoke the agreements, these men were nowhere to be found.

Su Qin proposed an alliance of the Six States to be formed at a summit conducted at Huan river (洹水) for mutual protection. To seal the alliance, there would be mutual exchange of hostages and ceremonial sacrice of a white horse.

Su Qin further propose specific measures to deal with Qin:
(1) Should Qin attack Chu, Qi and Wei would deploy their crack troops to assist Chu, Han would be responsible for cutting Qin's army supply line, Zhao would cross the Yellow River and Zhang river to assist, and Yan would station troops north of Chang Shan.
(2) If Qin attack Han and/or Wei, Chu would cut in on Qin's army's rear, Qi and Zhao would deploy forces to assist while Yan would station its troops at Yun Zhong (云中)
(3) If Qin were to invade Qi, Chu would cut in on its rear, Han would secure Cheng Gao (成皋) while Wei would block Wu Dao (午道). Zhao would cross the two rivers and Po Pass (博关), Yan would sent troops as reinforcements for Qi.
(4) If Qin targetted Yan, Zhao would secure Chang Shan, Chu would march into Wu Pass (武关), Qi would ferry troops across Bo Hai (渤海) to reinforce Yan together with Han and Wei.
(5) If Qin encroach upon Zhao, Han should secure Yi Yang (宜阳), Chu secure Wu Pass, Wei station its troops in He Wai (河外), Qi to cross Bo Hai and reinforce together with Yan to support Zhao.

Any state betraying the alliance should be attacked by the rest. Mighty though Qin was, it could not take on such an alliance. It would be limited to Han Gu (函谷).

The Zhao marquis remarked he was young and would not have thought of such a plan. He agreed, and supplied Su Qin with the necessary credentials and expenses for such a mission to the other states.

[To be continued ... Okay, my translating of classical Chinese is not strong, and I know I left out much, or even made some mistakes here and there. Any correction or contributions would be appreciated.

Next stop, Han (韩).
]
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#4 User is offline   Sephodwyrm 

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:31 AM

There are 2 descriptions of Su Qin in history. The Grand Historian Sima Qian say that he was the one that forged the 6 Alliance, but according to modern historical scholars who searched through volumes of historical text, of which:

<<Zhan Guo Zong Heng Jia Shu>> 战国纵横家书 was most instrumental in finding out about Su Qin. This book was discovered in 1973 in a tomb of a Han king with 18 chapters dedicated to the great orator and strategist. He came after Zhang Yi and helped Yan to relieve pressures from the state of Qi by increasing hostilities between Qi and Song while forging an anti-Qi alliance. He also "worked" in the Qi court as their "advisor". In 284 BC, the alliance of Qin, Zhao, Yan, Han and Wei marched against Yan, led by the great Yan general Le Yi. Su Qin's role as a double dealer was discovered by the Qi and he was punished by Che Lie (ripped apart by chariots).
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#5 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 01:09 AM

Sephodwyrm, on Mar 17 2005, 11:31 PM, said:

There are 2 descriptions of Su Qin in history.


That's what so wonderful about history, few accounts agree :no:
It might be interesting to compare the two descriptions.

I updated Su Qin's persuasions on Zhao in greater detail.
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#6 User is offline   sima old bandit 

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 12:43 PM

Please continue the translation snowbeagle, it's a great read. ^^
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#7 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 10:49 PM

sima old bandit, on Apr 12 2005, 01:43 AM, said:

Please continue the translation snowbeagle, it's a great read. ^^


Thanks, but I am hoping for more participation from other forummers.

It gets quite discouraging when he talks about strategic places and I could not find a map which locate them, and hence unable to assess their significance.

Two websites in Chinese which gave good commentaries:

http://www.100jia.ne...hiji/sj069.html

http://www.wcai.net/...shiji/lz009.htm

Come on, guys, especially those with access to helpful maps.
Please give your comments.

Now back to the story - according to Shi Ji, before Su Qin's trip to the state of Han, the King of Zhou presented to the ruler of Qin some of the sacrifical offerings for his predecessors, King Wen and King Wu.
Qin invaded the state of Wei and captured its general Long Jia (龙贾), taking the city of Diao Ying* (雕阴), with intent of eastward expansion. (* NW of LongMen river 龙门河之西北, under administration of Shang Jun 上郡).

Fearing Qin would invade Zhao and imperil his grand alliance masterplan, Su Qin provoked his fellow disciple Zhang Yi (张仪) into entering service in Qin - Zhang Yi promised that Qin would not invade Zhao during the lifetime of Su Qin.

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 11 April 2005 - 11:05 PM

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#8 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:06 AM

3. Persuading Han (韩)

The ruler of the State of Han was King Xuan (韩宣王), son of Marquis Zhao (韩昭侯).
When Su Qin met King Xuan, the former began by going through the strengths of the state:

(1) northern defences provided by the cities of Gong (巩) and ChengGao (城皋). These two cities were formerly possession of the Zhou kingdom, both located in present day HeNan province (河南).
(2) western guarded passes of YiYang (宜阳) and ShangBan (商阪).
(3) eastern protection of Wan (宛), Ráng (穰) [both part of NanYang (南阳)] and Wěi river (洧水) [a tributary of the Ying (颍) river)].
(4) southern bulwarks of Xíng mountain (陉山)
(5) territories of more than 900 li (里).
(6) army of several hundred thousand troops
(7) maker of the best bows and crossbows, such as the XiZi Crossbow (谿子弩), and the Shao Fu (少府) manufactured ShiLi (时力) and JüLai (距来) crossbows which had range of 600 steps away.
(8) The Han archers using hands and feet to handle repeater bows could fire repeatedly 100 shots, penetrating the armours of enemies in the distant and pierce the hearts of enemies at close range.
(9) The swords wielded by the soldiers were capable of cutting through enemies' armours, forged in places like Ming Shan (冥山), TangXi (棠谿), MoYang (墨阳), HeFù (合赙), DengShi (邓师), WangFeng (宛冯), LongYuan (龙渊) and TaiEr (太阿) [famous places historically associated with swordsmaking. Famous swordmakers MoYe (莫邪) was a native of MoYang, Yan (焉) a native of DengShi, LongYuan and TaiEr had famous swords named after them, which were made by GanJiang (干将) and OuZhi (欧冶).]
(10) The Han warriors were well equipped with courage, armours, shields and fine weapons and capable of resisting a force 100 times their size.

Su Qin pointed there was no reason why with such a backing, the State of Han should remain submissive to the State of Qin. He found the notion humiliating. Next, he analysed the consequences of continuing to submit to Qin.
(1) Qin would demand the cities of YiYang and ChengGao.
(2) The following year, Qin would demand more lands.
Land was not an inexhaustible commodity but Qin's demand was. To deny Qin's subsequent demands would nullify any benefit gained from previous tributes. To trade the limited supply of land to meet an insatiable demand was a foolish venture.

Su Qin said the idiom "Better be the head of a fowl than the rear-end of a cattle" reflected on the current situation of the State of Han, the latter analogy if Han continued to defer to Qin.

Su Qin was poking at the ruler of Han, implying he had his own brilliance and strong army, but willingly remained as an ox's ***.

This had the intended effect of provoking the King of Han who sighed deeply and agreed to the alliance with the State of Zhao, and entrusted the matter to Su Qin.

[after this ... Wei (魏)]
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#9 User is offline   Yun 

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:00 AM

Quote

He exhausted his funds while waiting to see the ruler, and only survived because a native by the name of Ai Zi (哀之) supported him.


Actually, 哀之 is not a name - it just means "took pity on him" in Classical Chinese.

Has anyone watched the CCTV series Zhanguo 战国? In it, Su Qin gets his first big break by sleeping with the young Yan ruler's beautiful mother. I've always wondered if there was any grain of truth in that.
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#10 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:15 AM

Yun, on Apr 12 2005, 09:00 PM, said:

Actually, 哀之 is not a name - it just means "took pity on him" in Classical Chinese.


Thanks for pointing that out!

More corrections and contributions welcomed!


Yun, on Apr 12 2005, 09:00 PM, said:

Has anyone watched the CCTV series Zhanguo 战国? In it, Su Qin gets his first big break by sleeping with the young Yan ruler's beautiful mother. I've always wondered if there was any grain of truth in that.


*sigh* I might be the only person here without a television at home.
But it's a lifestyle choice, so I am not complaining.

I plan to watch these series in the future, when I can acquire/borrow the whole series and watch them in one go over several days! Right now, must be more economical. ;)

Speaking of Su Qin's break, it's a speculation I suppose, your guess being as good as anyone's else.

Since I don't suppose it was actually recorded, it could easily have been some other influential dame, like a widowed sister of the ruler of Yan, if he had one.
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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:01 AM

Yun, on Apr 12 2005, 02:00 PM, said:

Actually, 哀之 is not a name - it just means "took pity on him" in Classical Chinese.

Has anyone watched the CCTV series Zhanguo 战国? In it, Su Qin gets his first big break by sleeping with the young Yan ruler's beautiful mother. I've always wondered if there was any grain of truth in that.
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Yes i have the set too. Guess we can add gigolo to his resume too. :haha:

Thanks for continuing the translation snowbeagle. :)
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#12 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 04:22 AM

4. Persuading Wei (魏)

Having secured Yan, Zhao and Han, Su Qin next visited King Xiang of Wei (魏襄王) for the next step to consolidate the alliance.

Background to Wei at that time

The State of Wei had been the earliest among the major states of the era to introduce far-reaching reforms under Marquis Wen of Wei (魏文侯). It was a de facto hegemonist for a time, but were subsequently been defeated by Qi, Qin and Chu in succession.

Its government had stagnated while other states began introducing their own reforms. Its rulers after Marquis Wu of Wei (魏武侯) had been unwarrantedly suspicious of their own ministers and generals, causing some like Wu Qi (吴起) and Xi Shou (犀首) to defeat to Chu and Qin respectively. King Hui of Wei (魏惠王) rejected his minister's Gongsun Zhuo's (公孙座) deathbed recommendation to either to employ or to kill Shang Yang (商鞅) (lest Shang Yang be used by other states). Wei would pay for this mistake later when Shang Yang served Qin and defeated it in battle, taking captive one of Wei's prince, Ang (卬). Other lost chances included Fan Jü (范雎) and later Lord XinLing Wei WuJi (信陵君).

Some considered its decline began with the disastrous defeat at the famous Battle of MaLing (马陵之战), when the Wei army under General Pang Juan (庞涓) was trounced by the State of Qi (齐) guided by Sun Bing (孙膑) who was also rejected by Wei (at Pang Juan's behest).

Another reason for its stagnation was it had no coherent long-term plan for expansion. It also lacked a consistent diplomatic foreign policy. Thus, its actions were haphazzard in nature, and brought little real permanent benefits while other states caught up. It became caught among the strong states, checked by the rising Qin in the west, the traditional superpower of Qi in the east, and the also by Zhao and Han who were closely related to it at its founding but became subsequent obstacles to its expansion, especially Zhao.


Su Qin's persuasion

Again, Su Qin began by highlighting the advantages (still) enjoyed by Wei.
Geographically, Wei had
(1) to the south: Hong Ditch (鸿沟); Territories of the vanquished state of Chen (陈); Ru Nan (汝南); Territories of the Xü (许), Yan (郾), KunYang (昆阳), ZhaoLing (召陵), WuYang (舞阳), XinDu (新都) and XinQī (新郪),
(2) to the east: Huai river (淮河); Ying river (颍河); ZhuZhao (煮枣); WuXü (无胥),
(3) to the west: Great Wall (this was later merged by Qin to the present Great Wall) and
(4) to the north: HeWai (河外) or present day HeNan; Juan (卷地); Yan (衍地) and ShuanZhao (酸枣)
(5) Thousand of li of land, which might seem small but densely populated with farms and people, livestock overcrowding the barns.
(6) Heavy traffic and endless streams of activities, tradings,

Su Qin told the ruler that in his assessment, the strength of Wei was comparable to that of Chu which possessed larger territories.

Next, he branded those who advised the ruler to submit to Qin as traitors who had no interest of the state in their hearts and would not help the ruler in times of calamity. He reminded Wei's ruler that Qin had no qualms in taking hostage the ruler of another state.

Su Qin identified a few things done by Wei which were shameful
(1) Submission to Qin as a vassal,
(2) Constructed an "away" palace for Qin,
(3) Receiving titles conferred by Qin,
(4) Adopting Qin's formal attires,
(5) Present Qin with tributes for offerings in spring and in autumn.

Su Qin further highlighted the achievements of other rulers with lesser resources for comparison:
(1) King Gou Jian of Yue (越王勾践) deploying 3,000 tired soldiers to capture King Fu Chai of Wu (吴王夫差)
(2) King Wu of Zhou (周武王) deploying only 3,000 troops and 300 chariots to defeat King Zhou of Shang (商纣) at the battle of MuYe (牧野).
His point was it was not the numbers but the effective employment of the troops that won the day.

Su Qin itemised Wei's military which was in every way superior to Gou Jian and King Wu.
(1) 200,000 armoured warriors (武士二十万)
(2) 200,000 troops with green turbans (苍头二十万),
(3) 200,000 vanguards (奋击二十万),
(4) 100,000 logistics/support troops (厮徒十万)
(5) 600 chariots
(6) 5,000 cavalry

Su Qin pointed out that friendship with Qin came at a price of yielding territories. He highlighted a passage from the Zhou book (周书) which advocated not allowing grass to grow under one's feet. If one does not deal with the young sprouting shoots when they were tender, one would need a heavy axe when they were grown.

The final point Su Qin made was if Wei formed a six-nation alliance against Qin, it would cease the loss-making business of friendship with Qin.

The ruler of Wei acknowledged the truth in Su Qin's words, and agreed to the alliance, putting the state and himself at the disposal of Su Qin.

[Next stop ... Qi (齐), before finally ... Chu (楚)]
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#13 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 04:20 AM

I would like to invite some contributions and thoughts to the analysis of Su Qin's soliciting the State of Qi and the State of Chu into the alliance.

Of the previous states, Yan and Han were the weakest and would find the alliance most beneficial.

Zhao and Wei were relatively stronger, but confined strategically by geography and found themselves on the defensive against Qin.

However, the State of Qi was still rather powerful, having gone through revitalisation under the reforms of the previous King Wei of Qi who employed Sun Bing, Tian Ji etc talented men.

I admit I am not too familiar with the different sequences of events and hence I am not certain if Qi had suffered any setback that might induce the ruler to seek friendly relationships to Qin, which would hardly be on equal terms. I could not seem to find anything that would enable me to understand better his persuasion of King Xuan of Qi.

Please share your thoughts.
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#14 User is offline   snowybeagle 

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 12:39 PM

It's almost 3 years since I started this thread, and from what I've been reading since then, I am really doubtful now about the veracity of Sima Qian's account of Su Qin :cry^:

One brief summary (in Chinese) casting the doubts on the worth of his arguments alone, if in the first place he really made them according to Sima Qian's narration, can be found in 苏秦相六国辨

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 02 February 2008 - 12:55 PM

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    Qin/Han Excavated materials/Zhangjiashan

Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:28 AM

Hello
I‘m new to this forum! I'm doing some work on the 战国策, and I'm looking at the 《秦策一》 chapter entitled 《苏秦始将连横说秦》. The ZGC has been considered by many since at least the Song not to be a work of history, but rather a book of intrigues or plots or persuasions. Particularly the section 《齐策三》 chapter "楚王死“ seems to point that the book may have been used as a kind of casebook for would-be persuaders: it offers a situation--the King of Chu has died leaving the Chu crown prince hostage at Qi-- and ten possible policies and their implications. On the basis of this and other textual analysis (which seems to show a disregard to factual and temporal accuracy, i.e. a disregard for history) the purpose of the work has been brought into question.
My hunch came from reading the passage I mention above. This describes Su Qin's early unsuccessful attempt to convince Qin Hui Wang to pursue a more active foreign policy. Su Qin's attempt fails, and he is forced to return home impoverished and suffer the indignation of his family's ridicule. He then spends his days and nights reading 《太公阴符》 (a work attributed to the Jiangtai Gong of fishing fame, the founder of the state of Qi), pricking his leg with a needle to keep himself from drowsing. He at lasts arrives upon a plan--the vertical alliance against Qin, which he successfully propagates. He thus becomes immensely important, rich and successful, and returns to his family whereupon he remarks, “O! Parents don't act like parents when their son is poor, but one is rich in successful relatives give you respect. In the human world, how can one afford to disregard power and money?"

This passage is full of interesting topics, but what occurred to me was that perhaps the story was a sort of didactic story or hagiography intended to serve a school of 游士. It gives an outline of a successful career in persuasion:

1. A failed attempt at persuasion
2. Study of an important youshi text by Jiangtaigong.
3. Wealth and success resulting from this study.

One way to read this story would be to say that it is actually kind of propaganda for my hypothetical school, emphasizing the role of study as a way to wealth and success and the failure and disgrace that come from bad persuasion. The little detail about the needle-pricking is an example of great discipline to inspire (or instill obedience into) pupils.

Obviously this is very tentative: my next idea is to look into Mawangdui materials to see if I can't get more on this. One idea is that Su Qin is kind of a architypical character that is used as a kind of stand-in for the youshi at many occasions--this on an idea of Crump via a review by David Hawkes.

Wonder what if anyone had any thoughts on this!
Thanks,
Jesse

PS Regarding the "Ghost Valley Master" I noticed the following work, which I haven't had a chance to look at:

鬼谷子 岳鸯注译评
岳鸯 注译评

This post has been edited by JesseWatson: 15 October 2008 - 06:29 AM

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