Hi,
I'm the author of the following essay on Shan wen kia (mountain pattern armour).
http://www.flatbow.com/shanwenkia/
I wrote it because I was fascinated by this beautiful and advanced form of armour. As you can see from reading the essay, it is quite speculative. I have not found many good sources that discuss this armour (beyond statues and paintings, of which I have images of hundreds), nor have I been able to find mention of any existing pieces.
The sources I have are all secondary, and sometimes contradictory. They include Oriental Armour, 5000 Years of Chinese Costume, and Ancient Chinese Armour (Zhong Guo Gu Dai Jun Rong Fu Shi).
I am interested in finding any more sources, especially primary sources, and ESPECIALLY information on the location of any extant fragments, or even photos. Any information is appreciated.
Thanks!
Daniel Slone
Mountain pattern armour resources?
Started by
Guest_Daniel Slone_*
, Mar 17 2005 05:09 PM
23 replies to this topic
#2
Zuo Zongtang
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Posted 17 March 2005 - 07:34 PM
I thought that armor was either Jia (甲) or Kai (铠). I've never heard of Kia
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#3
TMPikachu
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Posted 17 March 2005 - 09:07 PM
In 'Oriental Armour' Chinese armor is referred to as kiai and kia, where I believe Kiai is hide armor, and kia is a general term for armor
and if it helps... in OA, I think shianweikia shows up at the mention of 'Lion armor' worn by Tang soldiers
and if it helps... in OA, I think shianweikia shows up at the mention of 'Lion armor' worn by Tang soldiers
"the way has more than one name, and wise men have more than one method. Knowledge is such that it may suit all countries, so that all creatures may be saved..."
#4
lobster
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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:52 PM
These must be some very non-standard translations which I can't recognise...
#5
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Posted 18 March 2005 - 01:50 AM
Jia (甲) was a term that came from the term Ge (革) which meant 'leather'. We can understand why they used this term because some of the earliest armour that were around was indeed made of leather. In ancient chinese, these two terms sounded really similar so it was easy to see how one term Ge (革) as used at least as far back as the Shang dynasty while the term Jia (甲 ) only started to appear during the Zhou.
The term Kai (鎧) started to appear during the Qin dynasty. In the Jingdian-shiwen (經典釋文) it was noted that:
“皆言甲胄秦世已來始有鎧，兜鍪之文。古作甲皮，秦漢以來用鐵，鎧，鍪二字從金，蓋用鐵為之，而因以作名也。”
“… we all say that even in Qin times there were characters of Kai (鎧, armour) and doumou (兜鍪, helmet). In ancient times, leather was used to make armour. From the Qin and Han era onwards, metal were used. Because the character for kai (鎧) and mou (鍪) both includes the character of metal (金), it is because they used metal to be constructed. That was how they got their names…”
I have got some information about Shanwen armour. Although like you, I have not yet found any existing specimen. Just statues and books and historical records.
If you want good sources, you should go to primary sources like the Tangshi which were writting in Chinese. The main reason being alot of things are often lost in translation so english sources are not the best to go to.
The term Kai (鎧) started to appear during the Qin dynasty. In the Jingdian-shiwen (經典釋文) it was noted that:
“皆言甲胄秦世已來始有鎧，兜鍪之文。古作甲皮，秦漢以來用鐵，鎧，鍪二字從金，蓋用鐵為之，而因以作名也。”
“… we all say that even in Qin times there were characters of Kai (鎧, armour) and doumou (兜鍪, helmet). In ancient times, leather was used to make armour. From the Qin and Han era onwards, metal were used. Because the character for kai (鎧) and mou (鍪) both includes the character of metal (金), it is because they used metal to be constructed. That was how they got their names…”
I have got some information about Shanwen armour. Although like you, I have not yet found any existing specimen. Just statues and books and historical records.
If you want good sources, you should go to primary sources like the Tangshi which were writting in Chinese. The main reason being alot of things are often lost in translation so english sources are not the best to go to.
包容天下之心，明明仁義之念，開天闢地之志
#6
Yang Zongbao
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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:53 AM
kia= jia
#7
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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:58 PM
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.
#8
TMPikachu
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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:07 PM
of course he did, he wrote itDaniel, have you read this article before?
http://www.armourarc.../Shanwenkia.pdf
"the way has more than one name, and wise men have more than one method. Knowledge is such that it may suit all countries, so that all creatures may be saved..."
#9
Yun
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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:41 PM
Oops sorry, I'd forgotten the name of the author. Very nice to see you here on CHF!
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.
#10
Guest_Daniel Slone_*
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Posted 22 March 2005 - 05:53 PM
Thank you all for your replies. So, would it be a better transliteration to refer to the armour as "shan wen jia"? I'm obviously a beginner at the language, but always ready to learn. Yes, I got the term "kia" from Oriental Armour.
Wujiang, I am most interested to see any information you have if you would be willing to share. I am of course interested in any primary sources, though I would not be able to read them. I was working with a fellow whom I met on the internet who was helping me translate some pages out of the "Ancient Chinese Armour" book that I have. I received this book after I asked a Chinese friend to bring back anything on armour that he could find during a trip to Beijing. He moved away, and so cant help me with the translation. Is there a place where I could order copies of any other documents I should have?
Thanks again!
Daniel Slone
I have got some information about Shanwen armour. Although like you, I have not yet found any existing specimen. Just statues and books and historical records.
If you want good sources, you should go to primary sources like the Tangshi which were writting in Chinese. The main reason being alot of things are often lost in translation so english sources are not the best to go to.
Wujiang, I am most interested to see any information you have if you would be willing to share. I am of course interested in any primary sources, though I would not be able to read them. I was working with a fellow whom I met on the internet who was helping me translate some pages out of the "Ancient Chinese Armour" book that I have. I received this book after I asked a Chinese friend to bring back anything on armour that he could find during a trip to Beijing. He moved away, and so cant help me with the translation. Is there a place where I could order copies of any other documents I should have?
Thanks again!
Daniel Slone
#11
Guest_Daniel Slone_*
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Posted 23 March 2005 - 11:01 AM
Also, does anyone know the characters for "shanwen"? I know the "shan" part (山), but I can't seem to figure out the rest.
Many thanks from a struggling beginner!
Daniel
Many thanks from a struggling beginner!
Daniel
#12
Wú Fēi
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Posted 23 March 2005 - 11:40 AM
山纹=山紋=Shan1 Wen2
此生区区几十年，
Life takes decades,
如朝露，如幻影；
Short as morning dew and illusion;
几番意气几度浮华，
How much vigor,How many vanities,
不过梦中之梦。
Are only dreams played in a dream.
#13
Guest_Daniel Slone_*
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Posted 24 March 2005 - 11:30 AM
Thank you!
山纹=山紋=Shan1 Wen2
#14
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Posted 02 April 2005 - 07:59 PM
[COLOR=red]Does your book cover the period of southern Sung Dyansty?Oops sorry, I'd forgotten the name of the author. Very nice to see you here on CHF!
zai jian
Chris
Chris
#15
Guest_Daniel Slone_*
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Posted 06 April 2005 - 04:12 PM
[COLOR=red]Does your book cover the period of southern Sung Dyansty?
"Ancient Chinese Armour" covers pretty much all times, broken down by dynasty, with "prehistory" being the first chapter. I'd guess, without the book in front of me, that it does cover what you are looking for.
CHeers, Daniel
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