[Ghost_of_Han]

Well I haven't seen or read the book yet, but a friend told me his basic summary on this. I'm surprised that no one else has posted about this yet.

In 1421 during the Ming, the emperor sent out three Fleets to got explore the seas. One went to the Northeast, one went to he East and the other to the Southeast. And at the time China was move advanced then any other civilization, and these ships made the mayflower look like a rubber ducky. There set off and the one that went East hit California and went down the coast. Now it is said one of the fleets had trouble on the voyage and lost some ships. And so some Chinese had to be left behind in South America. There is Evidence that some South American tribe's languages are derived from Chinese. Back in China the forbidden city was hit by lighting, and the Emperor took this as an omen, that he should not be out of china in any way. So the Emperor moved all the city and in land, and left all his ports to rot. And all the voyagers were basically forgotten.

That is also the reason that in America we always learn that Christopher Columbus found America, because the god d**** European scholars basically acted as salesmen, and told lies that they were first to discover us. If you got to China and ask a scholar he'll tell you that they found America in 1421, but to them its no big deal so they didn't really care. It rewrites so much of what I have learned in school. And for you non-Americans out there, understand that this a common fact to us that Columbus found this country first, and in fact we have a national holiday for this man.

I hope someone has a better more accurate version on this topic.

As always any information is welcomed and wanted.

[Yun]

A piece that I wrote for my university's History Society when I was on student exchange in Berkeley last year, at the height of the Menzies controversy [BTW Ghost, this topic has already been briefly discussed in the Beginners' section, under "Ming's Navy"]:

1421 and September 11: America looks uneasily at Chinese power past and present

Yang Shao-yun

Among the numerous books about Chinese history and politics that are published each year, two stood out in 2001-2002 for the radical nature of their contents. And although these two books could not be more different in their central theses, both have excited public opinion in the United States in great disproportion to their lack of credibility in the eyes of academia. 1421: The Year China Discovered The World, by retired British submarine captain Gavin Menzies, cites a mountain of evidence to support the theory that the Ming treasure fleets (of Zheng He fame) not only reached North and South America before the Europeans did, but also circumnavigated the globe, visited Antarctica and Australia, and nearly made it to the North Pole. Seeds of Fire: China and the Story Behind the Attack on America by Gordon Thomas, a veteran American investigative journalist, claims to have proof that China instigated and funded the Al-Qaeda attacks on the United States as part of its plan to destroy American global power. Behind reader reactions to the theory that China discovered America and the theory that China is out to destroy it, one sees a profound ambivalence on the part of Americans towards China as both an ancient and newly-rising power.

Aptly enough, Menzies’ book was released in the United States with the more ethnocentric title 1421: The Year China Discovered America, one calculated to further sensationalize an issue that already has Americans wondering whether they should rewrite their history books. The story of how Menzies arrived at his theory after musing over a series of old pre-Columbus maps, and spent more than a decade researching it, is by now well-told. The extent of skepticism, even disdain, that it received from professional historians (including Louise Levathes, the author of the standard work on the subject of the Zheng He voyages, When China Ruled the Seas) has probably also been reported. Suffice it to say that the debate continues as Menzies struggles to unearth more evidence, including ascertaining the identity of certain shipwrecks in the Caribbean. But one look at the reader reviews of the book on Amazon.com will give an idea of how vociferous has been the debate among laymen as well, and how an additional ingredient always makes its appearance by and by: Western prejudices towards China and the constant and agonized awareness of that prejudice among the Chinese.

To get a feel of the spectrum of responses, here’s a lecturer from New Jersey:

As a professor of Chinese history, I cringe now thinking about the time that I will have to take during class, time that could be used teaching about Chinese history and civilization, to disabuse students who have heard about this caper. … Perhaps the most significant part of this project is this: Mr. Menzies stated that he was surprised to meet two professors in China who were making the same argument. This idea, that China 'discovered America', reflects a new nationalism in China. This idea is not popular among professors in China, but I will not be surprised if we discover a few months from now that this project enjoyed support from political circles within China.

A Chinese-American from California:
I expect that skepticism from Americans...what do American schools even teach of Asian countries? How much of Chinese history does the average American know? I'm guessing...NONE. In my personal experience in the US school system, the only times that we touched on Asian history was a brief period on Japan in 8th grade World History, and whenever Western history involved the East in European and US History in high school (which wasn't even very much and not at all in depth). That's an extremely limited base for Americans to accurately judge whether or not the Chinese were capable of such a task as circumnavigating the globe. Being Chinese myself, I have access to resources that an average American doesn't have - my parents and grandparents. They grew up learning Chinese history, so when they heard of Menzies' theory, they weren't very surprised at all. China was a great power at the time, and they knew it.

A reader from Seattle:
Not to discount other reviews, which you may have read on this site or others, but there is almost a racist, nationalistic standpoint against the information presented in Menzies' studies. I find it appalling to read that the very idea that the Chinese may have discovered the Americas is somehow morally, ethically or educationally "wrong".

On reflection, after reading this book, I had to dissect why I felt so resistant and almost spiteful towards the idea that the Chinese may have arrived in America before the Europeans... and you should ask yourself the same question. What moral, ethical or perhaps.. racial... standpoint are you holding onto that makes you feel this way?

Interestingly, there seems an equal uneasiness among Chinese regarding Menzies’ theory, as if to be informed of their past achievements by a Westerner is somehow objectionable and suspect. A response from Shanghai:
I am Chinese, and believe it or not, I think that this book is ridiculous. Yes, of course, it's 'neat', this idea that the great America was discovered by someone from China...but let's be real. I want foreigners to respect and take my country and culture seriously. Making up a fairy tale such as this one is not the way to achieve this. Having read the book, I will admit that the author spins a good yarn; he's very convincing. But it's a fantasy. I wish that I had thought of writing this book, then I could be rich!

And one from Hunan province (or so he claims):
When you see a claim that the Chinese landed on the US west coast, you can, with a bit of 'suspension of belief', read the argument. When the author claims the Chinese landed in Cuba, that's when it's time to return the book.

Actually, what may have happened is that the author, who apparently is not a historian, mistook Chinese immigrant artifacts, which are found in San Francisco, CA and in Havana, Cuba, as evidence of pre-Columbus landings by the Chinese. Or he is playing with the audience.

Not worth the money; and frankly an insult to the Chinese.

A Mr. Tom Yang from Vancouver:
As a Chinese sailor myself and educated at both side of worlds. I must say, right after the turning point of the Cape of Good Hope, Mr. Menzies made these Chinese mariners into a bunch of supermen. Of course I wish my ancestors did achieve something major in the past, but I care about the truth more. That's what history is all about.

Truth: is that really what history is about? Historians themselves are no longer so confident about that assertion. But one thing at least seems certain: far too many Americans combine a lack of interest in understanding anything about China with an avid willingness to believe anything about it. Amazon.com reports that Gordon Thomas’ book skyrocketed to Number 49 on their sales ranking lists within two days of its release in December 2001, thanks no doubt to the earth-shattering truths promised on its back cover:

China will use the current global crisis to launch itself as a new Super-Power and become America's new major enemy, according to Gordon Thomas, an internationally recognized expert on intelligence matters. On September 11, 2001, the same day the World Trade Center and Pentagon were hit by terrorists, a Chinese Peoples Liberation Army transport aircraft from Beijing landed in Kabul with the most important delegation the ruling Taliban had ever received, says Thomas. He describes the ongoing threat from China in his new book, Seeds of Fire: China and the Story Behind the Attack on America available in bookstores. Hours later, CIA Director George Tenet received a coded ‘red alert' message from Mossad's Tel Aviv headquarters that presented what he called a ‘worst case scenario' – that China would use a ruthless surrogate, bin-Laden, to attack the United States, says Thomas, who has over thirty years of experience as a foreign affairs reporter and investigative journalist. The Chinese delegation had come to sign the contract with Afghanistan that Osama bin-Laden had asked for, that would provide the Taliban with missile-tracking, state of the art communications, and air defense systems in exchange for the Taliban's promise to end the attacks by Muslim extremists in China's north-western regions. China by 2015 will have deployed tens to several tens of missiles with nuclear warheads targeted against the US, predicts a CIA briefing paper to the Bush Administration, according to Thomas. Seeds of Fire contains a large number of official unpublished documents pertaining to China's global take-over strategies. Thomas also exposes the secret dealings between Russia and China. He reveals reasons for the ever-closer relationship developing between Israel's Mossad and China's Secret Intelligence Service that enabled America's ultra-secret plans to be stolen from Los Alamos.

Thomas is apparently wildly popular among right-wingers and conspiracy theorists in the United States, although it seems curious why the former would approve of his bleak view of Israeli espionage. According to his publisher, a fringe establishment called Dandelion Books, he has “written over 38 best-selling books that have sold over 45 million copies in 36 countries. Dandelion Books has already sold Seeds of Fire foreign rights to 30 countries with 2 more pending. Anvil Studios has just acquired the film rights for the book.” Another China-bashing movie? One can hardly wait. The reason why Thomas book does not deserve to be taken seriously (unlike Menzies’, I would argue) is not his ‘X-phile’ readership, but rather the fact that he does not actually try to prove the theory that he opportunistically used as his book’s selling point right after the WTC attacks. Gordon Thomas was one of the American journalists reporting from the scene immediately after the violent suppression of the Tiananmen Square demonstrations, and he devotes much of his book to eyewitness accounts of the event. The rest of it deals with such shady CIA dealings as the arrest of Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard and the murder of millionaire Robert Maxwell. The tenuous connection between these separate incidents? According to Dandelion, "Seeds of Fire describes Pollard's never before revealed role in the theft of the most important software in the U.S. intelligence arsenal. Seeds of Fire is backed by over 100 pages of never before published documents that not only show how the theft was carried out - but also how it eventually led to China having a copy of it. Seeds of Fire shows how China used it to prepare itself to become a new Superpower.”

But how does this relate to China’s alleged complicity in the terrorist attacks on America? Hardly, because Thomas simply uses China’s spying on the US, oppression of Tibetans and killing of student demonstrators to convince the reader that the Chinese government is evil enough to do anything, and so his theory might well be true. This approach is cynical in the extreme, and what is more alarming is that many Americans are prepared to excuse it because it nonetheless confirms their own deepest fears. Chris Jurgenson from New Jersey:

Don't let the three stars fool you, as Seeds of Fire is, I believe, essential reading for those who are interested in the consequences of reform in hostile nations. It's also key to understanding the brutality of some nations, in particular those that practice communism, in their pursuit to quell the masses. Nobody can be certain that their rights (in this case the student's constitutional right to demonstrate as per the Chinese constitution) will forever be secure; no matter where they live.

However, the deduction of two stars was for the following reasons. First, this book is NOT a compilation of reasons why some believe that China will go to war against the US by 2015. That is the premise under which the book is promoted, but it simply isn't true. Not only does the author not provide a modicum of reasoning as to why China would even want to do this, but he tries to demonize China by pointing to its domestic policy in the handling of the student uprising to claim that it is indicative of potential conflict in the realm of foreign policy. Clearly, how a nation handles the affairs of it's own people is going to differ from how a nation handles the affairs of citizens from other countries. Basically, if you are looking for a book which discusses the threats of China on the US in the possibly near future, you had better look elsewhere.

Emil L. Posey from Alabama:
While quite an interesting book, the title is deceptive. There is relatively little regarding 9/11, China's involvement or otherwise. It's really like two books in one. The beginning chapters - which include some rather extraordinary accusations of CIA's involvement in mind-bending experiments, remote viewing, and such - are a description of the compromise (theft via subterfuge) by Israel of a secret computer program originally developed for the Department of Justice - the Prosecutors Management Information System, or PROMIS - Israel's modification of PROMIS into an intelligence-gathering tool, Israel's subsequent duplicity with China knowingly to the detriment of the US, and China's use of PROMIS (now Enhanced PROMIS) to obtain US nuclear secrets from Los Alamos lab (the Wen Ho Lee case). The last chapter describes China's long-term goal of becoming a superpower rival of the US and some of its activities in support of anti-US terrorism. Sandwiched in between is an excellent description of China's student democratic movement that ultimately ended in the massacre in Tiananmen Square in June 1989 and the US's tepid response to it. The connection between the student uprising and China's geopolitical aspirations isn't really clear beyond, perhaps, showing that China's communist politburo was (and still is) run by ultra-conservative hangers-on from the Long March who are not averse to violently suppressing dissent.

The often book reads like a novel. It contains an incredible amount of insider detail - deals, business relationships, covert assignments, confidential conversations, the contents of secret US intelligence reports, first-hand accounts of Chinese military operations in Lhasa, and on and on. Of the little of which I have prior knowledge, he is accurate; of the rest, I can only guess. He doesn't use footnotes, but attributions are often contained in the text as well as in a description of sources by chapter at the end of the book. Apparently he had access to many primary sources - personal diaries and personal interviews with key participants - as well as secondary sources, but still the level of detail is phenomenal.

The ultimate message of the book is a warning about China. Beijing within the decade may take the place of Moscow as our primary enemy, along with international terrorism. The new world order, as we already know, will not be peaceful. We will be faced with new threats - old and new enemies, all with new capabilities, and all looking at relations with the US as a zero-sum game. It brings to mind the Westerns in which young gunslingers look to make a name for themselves by challenging the old guns. And like it did for those old guns, these challenges are quickly going to become exasperating. Anyway, this is an excellent read. How accurately it projects our future remains to be seen.

Then there are the backwoods vigilante types, from Nevada and Chicago, Illinois respectively:
Seeds is your beacon in the darkness of government disinformation and secrecy. Thomas has done an amazing job to get the truth to you and me...all of us... and it shoulod be required reading. You'll learn what the media will not publish. You'll learn that the media is managed and you are fed only what they want you to have. Seeds is your passport to truth, no matter how grim it gets. You need to read it and pass it on. Get the truth out to your family, your friends and neighbors.

____________________________________________________________________

'Seeds of Fire' is a book that every single American needs to read. Gordon Thomas lays it all out, in incredible detail. The book starts a little dry, but soon you are caught up in it. It would be a great book as fiction - as fact, it is disturbing and alarming. The behind the scenes intrigue, the triumph of the dollar and the selling out of the brave Chinese students, it's a book that I haven't been able to get out of my head. The facts in the book force you to look at the world a little bit differently, with more of a jaundiced eye. Gordon Thomas has done his homework!

Perhaps the reader ought to reserve his jaundiced eye for Gordon Thomas’ ‘homework’ instead. But sadly, that is not to be. The first ten reader reviews of the book are the most profuse in their praise, with titles such as “A brilliant, accurate analysis of the world’s current crisis” (by Robert J. O’Connor, “US Army veteran – and Lover of Freedom”) and “Thomas’ Brilliance Strikes Again” (by Susan Dalberg, an “author and corporate executive” from Los Angeles). In case you’ve forgotten that before September 11 countless Americans were shrilly predicting war with China, this should remind you:

Thomas scores yet another victory in his newest tome. He lays bare, for anyone brave enough for the truth, the real threat China poses to the United States of America. Thomas makes the case that by 2015 we'll be eating more rice, fewer burgers and be driving rickshaws instead of Mercedes and Fords. That is, if the radiation levels are low enough to allow freedom of movement. This is a must read. Clearly, the WTC attack was just the beginning. With China poised to stike, books like this will prepare us for the dark future which lies ahead.

That was from Beverly Hills, and this is from Mainville, Ohio:
Read before going shopping next time... and then maybe, just maybe, you will hesitate and think long and hard before throwing that 'Made in China' item in your basket! If ONLY Americans would simply REFUSE to buy 'made in China', we would all be SO much better off! But, sad to say, sheep don't usually behave so intelligently, nor take actions for self-preservation, as in 'sheep to the slaughter'.

And so the exchange of venom goes on, one side spitting in English and the other in Chinese. Amid this dialogue of the deaf between the two most influential countries in the world, the ongoing academic debate as to whether China beat Columbus to the American continent not only comes to lose any sense of objectivity, but also threatens to add another weapon to the arsenal of cultural nationalism on both sides.

[Gweilo]

Yun, that was a very interesting paper! I agree with all your points. Personally, I don't really care who discovered North America, I'm more worried about the underlying cause of the raw emotion the debate stirred up. Sadly, it seems to be some of humanity's darker character flaws, such as ethnocentricity, prejudice, and racism. :(

[thirdgumi]

Nice, article Yun. Well, that's the world.

[Lord Anatolius]

Now I admit that I haven't read "Seeds of Fire: China and the Story Behind the Attack on America" - in fact I didn't even know it existed before I saw Yun's article. And if the description provided is anything to go by, it is nothing more than a piece of populistic rubbish feeding on Americans' shock at 9/11 and their general ignorance (and suspicion) of China and non-Occidental societies in general.

As for "1421: The Year China discovered the World", yes, I've read it and my responses can be found in the thread in the Beginner's forum. So I'll move straight on to the various comments around it. Rather surprisingly (or not), many Chinese deny it - probably because of a lingering deep respect for everything Western, and the need to not be perceived as nationalist - a few accept it, though, saying that Ming China really was powerful and impressive enough to do it. (A view, btw, that I share, having read the book and seen the vast plethora of evidence that Menzies uses to back up his points).

As for Americans, and Westerners in general, the reaction has been one of acceptance - IMO, mainly those who denounce 'Western imperialism', globalisation, etc - but mostly rejection - those who feel that Western culture is superior to all else and who delight in Armageddon style fantasies of 'yellow hordes'/red commies planning a soon-to-come assault the pinnacle of advanced democratic civilization (ie USA), and who easily fall for people like Gordon's loud, populistic propaganda.

And what I find saddest of all is that these viewpoints about 1421 are almost all politically derived, and not pursued for the altruistic sake of simply history, no politics.

[Han Chinese]

*sigh*

And that is one more fact the world shall never know...

It is sadly due to the fact that the world right now is based on Western civilization, and not on Eastern (Chinese) civilization that it caould have been.

The Europeans gained more ACTUAL influence over the world than the Chinese, since Europe is considered as the aggressive "island civilization". Meanwhile, China is a self-sufficient country, and therefore considered "continential civilization".

European expansions are everywhere, while China pretty much sticks to China for so long, without even believing expansion is necessary.

From what I know, the base of the expansionistic nature of Europeans are probably based upon primary Greek philosophers, such as Aristotle. While the prime Chinese philosopher Confucius, believed in a more harmonious way of life.

It is a very blurry subject, but I would think this as a rough outline.

[Stewart]

In Britain, the book is titled 1421: The Year China Discovered the World.

As I recall, it was given short shrift as a serious body of work due to the author being only an amateur historian although credit was given for his effort and ambition in exploring such a topic.

[Lord Anatolius]

Quote

As I recall, it was given short shrift as a serious body of work due to the author being only an amateur historian although credit was given for his effort and ambition in exploring such a topic.

That is, IMO, just a retarded excuse. I wonder how many people who dismiss him on that basis, have actually read the book critically. As I said in the previous point, many Westerners IMO just do not want to even consider this possibility.

[Han Chinese]

"As I said in the previous point, many Westerners IMO just do not want to even consider this possibility."

I hate to generalize, but the Western society of which we are now from, has grown egotistical. Frankly, they see themselves as superior to everyone else of different ethnicity, yet not as exaggerated as racism.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are Western historians that doubt PROVEN parts of Chinese history, just to make themselves look good... *sigh*

[Gweilo]

Han Chinese, I agree with your point, there is alot of arrogance in the west, but before we go too far on the bash-the-racist-westerners discussion, I would like to point out that China is by FAR more racist than the west.

I have experienced this firsthand in some parts of the mainland. Hong Kong is better, but even there no laws exist to prevent racist ideas from affecting everyday life. For example, there are stories in the paper about non-Chinese people being ignored in hospitals when they are injured, and being refused service and lodging when the Chinese landlord sees their minority status. And since no laws exist to prevent this discrimination, people keep getting away with it over there.

[Han Chinese]

Gweilo, on Jun 21 2004, 12:28 AM, said:

but before we go too far on the bash-the-racist-westerners discussion

Maybe I have not stated my point more clearly, I did not say all westerners are like that, but because Western society has spread worldwide, it is inevitable that such members exist with ethnocentrism.

As for your case with saying China is FAR more racist than the west, I wouldn't jump into conclusions with the FAR part.

China, compared to many other countries in the world, had only opened up to the world for a short time. Therefore, I would expect such arrogance due to their lack of education. Yet, I feel that someone coming from Europe cannot use the same point to such validity.

Furthermore, I would like to say that my father is a landlord himself, by renting out an unit in the condominiums to tenants.

In order to appease the foreigners (they are Japanese), he had to pitch free furniture, lights, and rugs. Even though the clients haven't paid their rent for 2 months, my dad has yet to say anything about pursuing the rent.

So please, when you make your point about landlords being racist, realize that you are indirectly defaming my father's character.

As for the hospital case, I have lived in Hong Kong for 10 years, but I have yet to see such poor rate of service. If anything, foreigners are often placed above the "Chinese commoners", due to the reason that many foreigners are potentially important businessmen, or are tourists that can potentially damage the tourism reputation if not treated first.

Therefore, I would just hope that you can see things differently.

[Gweilo]

First, let me apologize, I was not trying to criticize your father or anyone else. Let me put it this way: there are good people in the west. There are good people in Asia. There is racism and discrimination in the west. There is racism and discrimination in Asia. Now here comes the difference - in most of the west, we have laws against discrimination. In most of asia, these laws simply don't exist. That's why the racists over there can get away with their behavior. I am not just shooting off my mouth when I say the racism over there is more widespread. It's the truth.

The story of the hospital in Hong Kong was true. The patient was a woman of Indian decent. She died after hours of waiting for a doctor to exam her. Her husband tried to sue the hospital, but there is little chance of anything coming of it. At least their story was reported in the South China Morning Post (newspaper).

In the passed several years, that paper has reported several stories of discrimination related to renting flats. Also many letters-to-the-editor report this happening. Most of the discrimination occurs agains minorities of darker skin, but sometimes caucasians are also the victims.

If you have an online subscription to the SCMP (it's not free) you can probably find these stories by searching their archives.

At least in Hong Kong the press can report on these issues, in the (probably vain) hope that reporting them can trigger some social reform. On the mainland, stories like this are just ignored as a fact of life.

I understand and applaude your willingness to defend your father. He definitely sounds like a good man. But you would not be wise to defend all of China, at least not until you take the time to research this. I don't think you will like what you find.

Now we have have gotten way off topic here, so I suggest if you want to continue this discussion we start a new topic over in the Off-Topic Heaven called "Racism and Discrimination" or something like that. :(

[yehzhaofeng]

I see, when I was in 4th drade, the teacher taught us that Chinese fisherman were the first to reach the Americas. They've found stone anchors near the Californian Coasts, it was actually controversal here, but I believe Chinese were the first.

[Han Chinese]

Gweilo, on Jun 21 2004, 02:08 AM, said:

Now we have have gotten way off topic here, so I suggest if you want to continue this discussion we start a new topic over in the Off-Topic Heaven called "Racism and Discrimination" or something like that.  :(

Well, I have read through your post, and I find myself in agreement with that mainland China might not have such laws. However, I must just say one thing to conclude things:

Hong Kong MUST have such laws passed. Hong Kong has been always been using the British common laws system even after 1997, so it's impossible for them not to have laws against racism.

Besides, Hong Kong has the reputation of an "international city", and the capitalist metropolis of the East. This, combined with the fact that foreign workers (Filipinos, Indians, Vietnamese, etc.) are largely present, there is no doubting that Hong Kong does have discrimination punishments in the judicial system. I have even seen events on the news of Hong Kong, that there are owners abusing overseas housekeepers being brought to court, and sued for thousands of dollars.

Regarding to mainland China, you may be right. One can only hope that education, and longer periods of opening up to the world can reduce their ignorance on these matters.

[Gweilo]

The cases you have read about crossed the threshold from discrimination into criminal wrong-doing. That's why the people involved were prosecuted. Hong Kong does have rule-of-law (at least for now, it seems to be eroding since the handover), so there is some legal recourse available, but only in some cases.

The fact that Hong Kong is recognized as an international city just makes their lack of racial discrimination laws more embarassing. You don't have to believe me, read it for yourself:

http://www.hab.gov.hk/en/about_us/from_the...aSpeeches18.htm

http://www.hkfs.org....s/010407_1.html