[tuanoo1]

Ever wonder who were the first explorers who discovered or set foot on the North and South America. A book entitled '1451' the year Columbus founded the new continents said that the Chinese or people of oriental origins could have discovered that land first. If so, he said the world History might have to be rewritten.

tuan

[Jugu]

tuanoo1, on Jun 4 2005, 07:25 PM, said:

Ever wonder who were the first explorers who discovered or set foot on the North and South America. A book entitled '1451' the year Columbus founded the new continents said that the Chinese or people of oriental origins could have discovered that land first. If so, he said the world History might have to be rewritten.

tuan

Tuan, I have read a review of this book that you have mentioned recently. Although I regret that I have not had the opportunity to read "1421: The Year China Discovered the World" by Gavin Menzies, I have heard many things about it, and it seems to have created quite a stir among historians in China and abroad.

Although many archaeologists have pointed out that the Vikings were the first europeans to have discovered the North American continent in the tenth century CE, Gavin Menzies may be the first to claim that the Chinese had discovered the North American continent before Columbus.

When I read this Article in the Asian Pacific Posthttp://www.asianpaci...rticle/332.html ) concerning Menzies attempt to begin excavating a possible Chinese naval fortification on the Eastern Sea board of the US. Acording to the article Menzies was to inform the Canadian Government and then UNESCO, and ask the latter to make it a World Heritage site. A public disclosure was to be made on May 16 at the Library of Congress. However, I am not really sure what the outcome was or whether any such public disclosure was made.java script:emoticon('')
smilie

Hopefully thing will turn out right for Gavin, and he will receive some funding. Unfortunately, his ideas seem to have run into a fair amount of flak, but this should make the debate concerning a Chinese presence in 15th century North America even more interesting.

Since I haven't read the book it would be nice if Tuan or anyone else would provide some points they thought were interesting. I am also curious as to whether Menzies succeeded in getting funding for his plans to excavate the aforementioned site on the Atlantic Sea board of the U.S.

Jugu

[wlee15]

Here's an article about the "discovery" near Cape Breton.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/06...1071336-cp.html

Here's also a good site that debunks some of Gavin Menzies findings.
http://www.kenspy.com/Menzies/

I'm really sceptical of any claims that Chinese sailors reach the eastern coast of North America, the strongest winds head towards the Caribbeans and Central America, heading that far north would be difficult especially if the sailors didn't know where they were going. I'm pretty sure the remains are of the colonial-era French or British forts.

[Jugu]

Mr. Lee,

Thanks for following up on my question. I was too lazy to follow up on this on my own. The links you provided were interesting and provided a counter-perspective to what I have read before. Hehe, guess I was a little too over-enthusiastic. From what I hear Menzies takes a lot of scattered clues and 'evidence' and weaves it into something that seems quite cohesive. I think it might take a while before scholars refute all of the mini claims he has made to substantiate his grand-theory. Yet there are some things that he has dug up that need to be explained- such as the presence of a cave painting that seems to depict Chinese junks (in the Western Coast North America) and the scattered finds of scattered artifacts that resemble those from China.

I found it a bit irritating that many of the artifacts that he provides as evidence to substantiate his claims, are not really dated, and have not been verified by archaeologists and art historians.

but on the bright side, even if this is a hoax, at least it has livened up the studies of the exploits of China's maritime explorationa and trade. Hopefully discerning scholars in this field will shed light on new aspects of Zheng He's voyages.

jugu

[许-89]

I thought Columbus discovered America in 1492..

[Yun]

Take your time reading the whole long thread we already have on the Menzies theory, which I am now merging with your posts.

An experienced British seaman living in Malaysia has also recently written a book debunking Menzies based on nautical aspects. I may buy it and have a look sometime.

[Liang Jieming]

I've read it. A lot of what he says in his book makes sense (as much as I can understand as a landlubber) but I think he goes a little overboard in the opposite direction and doesn't give Menzies sufficient benefit of the doubt in his desire to debunk everything.

[Yun]

Could you give us the title of that book (which I've forgotten), and a link to its page on Amazon.com if there is one?

[Liang Jieming]

I can't remember the title but both Gavin and him are experienced seamen. The difference between the two is that Gavin was a submariner and his perspective was from a much lower lever. Gavin's argument about seeing and charting from almost sealevel makes a lot of sense and is the basis of much of his theories. If you read this book, you get a sense that he is trying too hard to debunk Gavin, that itself would make me skeptical to begin with.

[poirot]

I have glimpsed at 1421: The Year China Discovered America and visited the website a year ago. My view on Galvin Menzies' claim that China colonized America via Zheng He's voyages remains skeptical. Australia was feasible geographically, America would be a long stretch:

1. China is one of the most well documented empires in history. If Ming China indeed "found" colonies in America, there would have been more documents to prove their existence. The Ming Dynasty is only 600 years apart from the present day. Accurate accounts of every aspect in the Ming Dynasty, such as Ming Shih, exist. Something as important as setting up colonies overseas would be well documented by Ming historians. Thus, the scarcity of documents to prove the existence of the colonies would indicate their non-existence.

2. I do not buy the notion that officials burned or eradicated all of Zheng He's accounts or logs. The eradiction theory supports the notion that Zheng He's discovery of foreign lands threathened the emperor's mandate over all under heaven. Nevertheless, stopping the voyages is one thing, eradicating all records is another. The emperors succeeding Yong Le, Yen Zong and Xuan Zong, were competent and intelligent rulers who would never pull anything as over the top as destroying valuable records.

Because of the geographical proximity of Australia to the Malayasia and Indonesia, it is entire feasible that Zheng He vistied and set up colonies there. Yet, sendng Hong, the two Zhous, and Yang to independent voyages across the pacific to America is, to me, a huge stretch of imagination. More evidence is needed.

This post has been edited by Yun: 08 June 2005 - 04:58 AM

[Yun]

More substantial criticisms of Menzies by Bill Hartz, link provided by Dr Geoff Wade:

http://thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=...=article&sid=91

[Yun]

An article on Paul Chiasson's Nova Scotia theory, which is being pushed in collaboration with Menzies: http://www.escribe.c...y/de/m1470.html

Details on the book by P.J. Rivers, the retired sailor who aims to debunk Menzies' theory as nautically impossible: http://www.selectboo...itles/36572.htm

CHF's Singapore meeting with Menzies and Cedric Bell in early July, for those who missed it:
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5631

[Yun]

More on CHF: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4991

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5297

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...5&hl=geoff+wade

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...3&hl=geoff+wade

http://www.ari.nus.e...s/wps04_031.pdf

[Too hi Fat]

I have read the book 1421 ... very interesting ideas ...

It does not suprise me that the chinese fleet reached australia. My friend was with his uncle up near cape york fishing a few years back. He recounted to me what the abos told him about how they had legends of chinese turning up to trade with them. They know that they are chinese couse apparently they came with Makassars (Sulewasi people). They also recounted that there was a town near their settelment and how that whole town (everything right down to the last brick and rubbish) was taken on ships when they left. And also about those who refused to leave were killed and bodies taken on ships. They also mentioned that some survived and assimilated with them.

The american experience ... well ... some of his claims are a bit far fetch. But some like San Francisco being an old chinese colony is quite feasible. His theory on South America and the Pacific is highly probably as well. Especially the bit about how the Kumara got to NZ and the pacific.

New Zealand was definately explored by chinese. I have seen the bell that he mentioned and I tell ya ... it's very Ming. I remember as a child not knowing squat about this ... saying "that looks like its from China" then I got a smack over the head by my teacher who insisted that it's Dutch.

[DannyJo]

TMPikachu, on Apr 2 2005, 12:52 AM, said:

New Gavin Menzes article

http://www.asianpaci...rticle/332.html

Riddle of a lost Chinese city on the Atlantic coast
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Feb 24, 2005
On May 16, a Canadian architect will tell the United Nations of a lost Chinese city on the Atlantic coast of North America, lending weight to the theory that the Chinese arrived in the New World some 70 years before Christopher Columbus.

Did this announcement of the lost Chinese City 2/3rds the size of the Forbidden City ever happen?