[Ruguy]

Dear Colleagues,

I need ANY information about so-called Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) - some kind of short iron mace used and/or invented by Tang general Xin Xiong.
As I read from one western article:
"General Xin is said to have had a great reputation for very rare skill with a (nonbladed) jiaan that was passed down to him by several generations of ancestors. He used the weapon in fast striking forms, including the “moving
serpent” and “dropping snowflake” movements. General Xin’s most powerful form, however, was called “shashoujiaan.” The legend relates that when General Xin taught his cousin, Lou Cheng, the most effective forms to employ with the jiaan, he kept secret the “shashoujiaan” form because he realized that he might no longer be
the best user of the jiaan if he taught the form to his cousin".

Please, help me with some questions with it:

1. Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) is a real weapon, weapon technic or wushu tao or just old idiome without any true historycal roots?
2. Who is Xin Xiong and were I can get any info about him?
3. If Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) is a real weapon - how it looks and what purpouse served (battlefield weapon? consealed weapon? sign of warlord power?)?

Any info will help me greatly.

Thank you.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Ruguy, on Feb 16 2009, 02:28 AM, said:

Dear Colleagues,

I need ANY information about so-called Shashoujian (Assassin's Mace) - some kind of short iron mace used and/or invented by Tang general Xin Xiong.
As I read from one western article:
"General Xin is said to have had a great reputation for very rare skill with a (nonbladed) jiaan that was passed down to him by several generations of ancestors. He used the weapon in fast striking forms, including the "moving
serpent" and "dropping snowflake" movements. General Xin's most powerful form, however, was called "shashoujiaan." The legend relates that when General Xin taught his cousin, Lou Cheng, the most effective forms to employ with the jiaan, he kept secret the "shashoujiaan" form because he realized that he might no longer be
the best user of the jiaan if he taught the form to his cousin".

Please, help me with some questions with it:

1. Shashoujian (Assassin's Mace) is a real weapon, weapon technic or wushu tao or just old idiome without any true historycal roots?
2. Who is Xin Xiong and were I can get any info about him?
3. If Shashoujian (Assassin's Mace) is a real weapon - how it looks and what purpouse served (battlefield weapon? consealed weapon? sign of warlord power?)?

Any info will help me greatly.

Thank you.

A mace is NOT called a Jian 剑 in Chinese. A "Jian" refers to a sword. My prediction is that "Shashoujian 杀手剑 " is not the correct term for "Assassin's Mace", but rather it actually means "assassin's sword". The correct Chinese term for mace is called "lang ya bang 狼牙棒".

The most common weapon used by Chinese Assassin is a type of short sword known as "bi shou 匕首". I'm not too sure about other types of swords used by assassin.

There are many possible Chinese names with "Xin Xiong". You need to provide the chinese characters of it so that we can check the source for you.

This post has been edited by General_Zhaoyun: 16 February 2009 - 05:19 AM

[Peter]

General_Zhaoyun, on Feb 16 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

A mace is NOT called a Jian 剑 in Chinese. A "Jian" refers to a sword. My prediction is that "Shashoujian 杀手剑 " is not the correct term for "Assassin's Mace", but rather it actually means "assassin's sword". The correct Chinese term for mace is called "lang ya bang 狼牙棒".

The most common weapon used by Chinese Assassin is a type of short sword known as "bi shou 匕首". I'm not too sure about other types of swords used by assassin.

There are many possible Chinese names with "Xin Xiong". You need to provide the chinese characters of it so that we can check the source for you.

Not entirely, there is in fact a Chinese jian (锏) that is a mace, it is the 3rd tone in pinyin, whereas the double edged sword (剑) is the 4th tone.

There are two types of Chinese maces, the bian "whip" and the jian "ruler". The bian (鞭) is often shaped with bamboo-like sections and often has a round cross-section. (An alternative bian (鞭) is a flexible whip, but I am now discussing the rigid steel version.) The jian is of square or rectangular cross-section, sometimes with fullers.

A simple 19th century "jian" mace:


Both jian and bian were used alone or in pairs and lengths varied anywhere from about 50 - 90 cm. Those used in pairs were generally shorter.

Both jian and bian maces were used in military circles up to at least the 18th century where they appear as:

1.) "Jianruiying Mace"
(which is a bian, used by the commander of the special jianruiying crack troops.)
2.) "Green Standard Army Double Maces" (Which are jian.)

Especially bian are often pretty well-made, and appear to have been used by high-ranked or otherwise wealthy men.

To get back at the original questions:

Quote

1. Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) is a real weapon, weapon technic or wushu tao or just old idiome without any true historycal roots?

My studies are mainly focused towards the Qing dynasty. In this era, I have never encountered anything regarding any 杀手锏 but it may well have existed at some point. Hardly any martial arts that use maces still exist, while the weapons are widely found in antique circles. Almost all martial arts we know today date from the late Ming to the present day. They almost all boast about earlier origins but none can really be traced back very far. It is an inherent feature of Chinese culture to ascribe new inventions to distant traditions and ancestors: Partly to honor them, partly to give the new idea its right of existence. If there ever was such a technique, it may have been lost in time or merged with some of the arts we know today, its movements now hidden in some form.

Quote

2. Who is Xin Xiong and were I can get any info about him?

Sorry, Tang history really isn't my area so I can't help you with that.

Quote

3. If Shashoujian (Assassin's Mace) is a real weapon - how it looks and what purpouse served (battlefield weapon? consealed weapon? sign of warlord power?)?

The richly adorned jianruiying commander's mace tells me that it indeed was some kind of warlord status sign on some occasions. They are also REALLY heavy, so it also says something about the strength of the user. I can imagine them being especially good against armor, which is why you often find them in Ming woodblock illustrations and in Ming manuals. Some examples that I've seen were made to look like something else, like a large imperial-style ruler that was made of iron instead of the usual zitan hardwood. Not looking like a weapon, and the one carrying it being disguised as a worker, could make a great assassin. But such an outfit would seem unworthy of a general to me. But who knows, historical fact is often more bizarre than what we can come up with.


I've also heard of an old Chinese saying that talked about this "assasin's mace", which I think refers to a duel or battle not being fought by its set rules but suddenly decided by an unexpected blow. I am not too well-informed on this saying, so I could be wrong on this one.

I hope this helps somewhat!
Does the tang passage come with an illustration made in the period?

-Peter

[Yun]

Guys, I made a thread on different types of Chinese mace in 2006: http://www.chinahist...p...19&hl=Maces

My take on the 锏 is that it is actually meant to be shaped like a 剑 sword, hence my calling it a sword-mace in the above thread.

Quote

2. Who is Xin Xiong and were I can get any info about him?

The general in question was named Qin Qiong, not Xin Xiong. He is better known as Qin Shubao: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Qin_Shubao

In the late Ming/early Qing novel Sui-Tang Yanyi (Romance of Sui and Tang), Qin Shubao is depicted wielding a pair of gold-plated jian maces as his trademark. This image has lived on in popular depictions of Qin, especially as one of the Chinese door gods. But in actual historical records, Qin Shubao's weapon was a lance:

每敵有驍將銳士震耀出入以誇眾者，秦王輒命叔寶往取之，躍馬挺槍刺於萬眾中...

Translation: Whenever there was, in the enemy army, a brave and skilled general or soldier who made a display of charging in and out of the Tang army's ranks in order to show off the strength of the enemy, the Prince of Qin (Li Shimin) would quickly order Shubao to ride out and deal with him. Shubao would then bring his horse to a full gallop, straighten his lance, and spear the enemy champion in the midst of ten thousand enemy troops...
(from Qin Qiong's biography in Xin Tangshu chapter 89)

[Yang Zongbao]

General_Zhaoyun, on Feb 16 2009, 04:13 AM, said:

The most common weapon used by Chinese Assassin is a type of short sword known as "bi shou 匕首". I'm not too sure about other types of swords used by assassin.

Bi shou is a dagger. However, I'm not sure that there's any source that says that it was the most commonly used weapon by assassins, even if assassins are commonly envisioned as dagger wielders. I don't think that the choice of weapon matters, if it got the job done, and daggers were certainly not singled out as the only tool for the job.

[Ruguy]

Dear friends!

Thank you very mutch! You help me greatly.
One member of the forum send me this video:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
and second part
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

there Chinese antique collector Ma Weidu (马未都), show and explain how a "Shashou-jian" (杀手锏) works.
I don't know Chinese, so I can only look at picture and try to undestand.
It seems that "Shashou-jian" is a short version of jian sword-mace. I read in one western article that "Shashou-jian" can be concealed in long sleeves of court dress. Author tells that idea of "Shashou-jian" was in surprice attack of armed warrior by "unarmed" civilian. Jian mace were good against armour and in hands of expirienced fighter even can breake sword blade. According to mr. Ma Weidu I'm right or wrong? Maybe you can translate his words about "Shashou-jian"?
Thank you very much again.

Anton.

This post has been edited by Ruguy: 19 February 2009 - 02:08 PM

[Peter]

Hi,

I wonder about the "sword-mace" term because to me there is not much about them that makes it look like a sword. The shape of its guard (if it even has one) and the pommel are markedly different from those found on swords of the era.

Ruguy, on Feb 19 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

It seems that "Shashou-jian" is a short version of jian sword-mace. I read in one western article that "Shashou-jian" can be concealed in long sleeves of court dress. Author tells that idea of "Shashou-jian" was in surprice attack of armed warrior by "unarmed" civilian. Jian mace were good against armour and in hands of expirienced fighter even can breake sword blade. According to mr. Ma Weidu I'm right or wrong? Maybe you can translate his words about "Shashou-jian"?
Thank you very much again.

Anton.

I've heard numerous such stories on the supposed use of some old Chinese weapons but when digging further, most are unfortunately without any firm base. I would like to know where the theories of a mace in one's sleeve would come from other than someone's imagination.

In general I wouldn't think that a heavy mace would not make a good assassination weapon. Those maces used well against armor are far too big to fit in one's sleeve and were usually used from the horse which increases the impact force. To be big enough, it should be made to resemble something else in order to bring it close enough.

In researching these things, I have learned to trust only period accounts, period artwork (not always) / early pictures and period texts. I'll be a believer when anything about sleeve-maces will turn up, but until then I would have to dismiss the theory.

Similar stories go on a sword's tassel that was supposedly for distracting an opponent. In reality, these tassels came from parade arms and opera props and were only added to Chinese swords when the art moved away from the battlefields and more toward show.

-Peter

[Yun]

Quote

I wonder about the "sword-mace" term because to me there is not much about them that makes it look like a sword. The shape of its guard (if it even has one) and the pommel are markedly different from those found on swords of the era.

I've read elsewhere that the name 锏 is derived from the weapon's resemblance to the jian 简, also known as hu 笏, these being long, thin slips of jade, ivory, or bamboo that courtiers would hold at court audiences and use to write down notes. The usual translation for 笏 is "tablet", so maybe 锏 should be translated as "tablet-mace".
On 笏 see http://www.zdic.net/...dicACZdic8F.htm

[Yun]

Illustration of a courtier holding a 笏:


A Japanese version:

But you can see that the resemblance to the weapon 锏 isn't really that close.

[Peter]

Yun, on Feb 21 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

I've read elsewhere that the name 锏 is derived from the weapon's resemblance to the jian 简, also known as hu 笏, these being long, thin slips of jade, ivory, or bamboo that courtiers would hold at court audiences and use to write down notes. The usual translation for 笏 is "tablet", so maybe 锏 should be translated as "tablet-mace".
On 笏 see http://www.zdic.net/...dicACZdic8F.htm

Couldn't it have not been meant to resemble any of these? I find it unlikely that they were modeled after these wide tablets as well, because the shape is too different. Making a mace that flat and wide will not become an effective weapon at all.

I don't know about early maces, but these maces were associated with security companies and the Green Standard Army and not in scholarly circles like 剑 and 笏.

The only 锏 I've seen that were made to resemble something else were imperial rulers, usually 1 to 3 尺 long. I can imagine these carried by workers or people dressed like workers in times and places where weapons were banned.

-Peter

[Yun]

Quote

Couldn't it have not been meant to resemble any of these?

That is of course possible, but it leaves an etymological problem unresolved. The name of the weapon is also often written as 简, hence my wondering whether it had anything to do with some other kind of 简. Let's try another angle of approach then...

Iron rings or strips mounted at the ends of cart axles, as a protective layer against friction with the hubs of the wheels, were the original subject of the word 锏:

◎ 锏
鐧、鐗 jiǎn
〈名〉
(1) 古代兵器,鞭类 [mace;a kind of ancient weapon]。长而无刃,有四棱,上端略小,下端有柄
三股叉,四楞锏,耀日争光。——元· 关汉卿《单刀会》
(2) 另见 jiàn
基本词义
◎ 锏
鐧 jiàn
〈名〉
(1) 车轴上的铁条,用以减少轴与毂之间的摩擦 [iron protection for wheel axle]
膏锏有余,则车轻人。——《吴子·治兵》
(2) 另见 jiǎn

The Shiming dictionary, dated to around AD 200, also contains the following entry 釋車: 鐧，間也。間釭軸之間，使不相摩也。( http://chinese.dstur...ode=41314&if=en ) It does not mention the use of the word as the name of a weapon; in fact, the weapon of that name appears relatively late in Chinese history.

So the question is how a word originally applied to a metallic part of a cart axle was later applied to a kind of weapon. Was there some resemblance in shape?

[Peter]

Yun, on Feb 24 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

That is of course possible, but it leaves an etymological problem unresolved. The name of the weapon is also often written as 简, hence my wondering whether it had anything to do with some other kind of 简. Let's try another angle of approach then...

Iron rings or strips mounted at the ends of cart axles, as a protective layer against friction with the hubs of the wheels, were the original subject of the word 锏:

◎ 锏
鐧、鐗 jiǎn
〈名〉
(1) 古代兵器,鞭类 [mace;a kind of ancient weapon]。长而无刃,有四棱,上端略小,下端有柄
三股叉,四楞锏,耀日争光。——元· 关汉卿《单刀会》
(2) 另见 jiàn
基本词义
◎ 锏
鐧 jiàn
〈名〉
(1) 车轴上的铁条,用以减少轴与毂之间的摩擦 [iron protection for wheel axle]
膏锏有余,则车轻人。——《吴子·治兵》
(2) 另见 jiǎn

The Shiming dictionary, dated to around AD 200, also contains the following entry 釋車: 鐧，間也。間釭軸之間，使不相摩也。( http://chinese.dstur...ode=41314&if=en ) It does not mention the use of the word as the name of a weapon; in fact, the weapon of that name appears relatively late in Chinese history.

So the question is how a word originally applied to a metallic part of a cart axle was later applied to a kind of weapon. Was there some resemblance in shape?

Hi Yun,

This is very interesting! I'm not that literate in Chinese so thanks for digging into the etymology of the term.

It is basically a "whacking" weapon, meant to be grapsed on one side while the other is used to hit with. In early ages where metal was still relatively expensive often not the whole weapon was made of metal but just the business end. As you probably know the shape of some maces (both Central Asian types used by the Mongols and other peoples in the region, as those from other cultures all over the world) consist of a wooden stick with a heavy metal head to hit with. In shape, I find them not unlike a cart axle with the protection cap left on one side!



It's just a theory, but perhaps this referral to an earlier "whacker" explains the etymology.

Funny: Imagine the name started to be used to describe a mace when someone's cart was broken in battle, and he took out the axl with one protection fitting still on it and used it to whack his enemies on the head with it! That would be a funny sight..

-Peter

[gegeegeee]

Quote

Dear Colleagues,

I need ANY information about so-called Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) - some kind of short iron mace used and/or invented by Tang general Xin Xiong.
As I read from one western article:
"General Xin is said to have had a great reputation for very rare skill with a (nonbladed) jiaan that was passed down to him by several generations of ancestors. He used the weapon in fast striking forms, including the “moving
serpent” and “dropping snowflake” movements. General Xin’s most powerful form, however, was called “shashoujiaan.” The legend relates that when General Xin taught his cousin, Lou Cheng, the most effective forms to employ with the jiaan, he kept secret the “shashoujiaan” form because he realized that he might no longer be
the best user of the jiaan if he taught the form to his cousin".

Please, help me with some questions with it:

1. Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) is a real weapon, weapon technic or wushu tao or just old idiome without any true historycal roots?
2. Who is Xin Xiong and were I can get any info about him?
3. If Shashoujian (Assassin’s Mace) is a real weapon - how it looks and what purpouse served (battlefield weapon? consealed weapon? sign of warlord power?)?

Any info will help me greatly.

Thank you.

Hey I believe the Tang General "Xin Xiong" is in fact, General Qin Qiong, who was a well respected general under Li Shi Min.
His cousin to whom he taught the Jian techniques to was Luo Cheng, another Tang general.

I think that by Shashoujian which translates to "Assasin's Mace" you actually mean "SaShouJian" which is one of QinQiong's techniques. It literally means "Throwing the Jian".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that might clear some things up.

It is typical to see the depictions of Qin Qiong with his jian, and Yu Chi Gong with his bian, on doors, as they serve as gate guardians.

Heres more information on Qin Qiong, Qin Shu bao.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Qiong

- KC

[gegeegeee]

Sorry for the double post.

Here is some information on Yuchigong, if you need it.



http://en.wikipedia....ki/Yuchi_Jingde