[Kongmingx]

The character from Outlaws of Marsh, Song Jiang 宋江, was supposedly a historical figure. I also heard that he had a relationship with Yue Fei(I doubt it), and that he was very brave and a celebrated hero. Is this true, and what did he really do historically and did he have any effect on Song's politics?

[Snafu]

Here's what I was able to dig up -

(from nationmaster.com)

Song Jiang is mentioned in the historical texts toward the end of the reign of Emperor Huizong. There is some confusion about his place of birth and his original base of operations. One account, from Piling Ji notes that Song Jiang gathered together fugitives to prey on the roads of Shandong. Another account says that he and his group rose north of the Yellow River and moved south into the Huai River valley. They were said to have invaded some ten commanderies and were evidently regarded as more than merely a nuisance by the imperial court at Kaifeng. A palace memorial by the official Hou Meng survives in the History of Song: "Song Jiang with thirty-six others crosses Qi and Wei (roughly the central belt of the North China Plain) at will. Government troops number several ten thousand, but none dare to oppose him. His ability must be extraordinary. Now that the Qingxi bandits have risen, why not pardon Song Jiang and have him campaign against [the bandit] Fang La to redeem himself." No imperial response is recorded to Hou's suggestion.

Song Jiang's bandits were active in the prefectures of Chuzhou and Haizhou (now in central Jiangsu province) in early 1112. A description of their activities and subsequent defeat by government troops is recorded in the official biography of Zhang Shuye (張叔夜), who was at the time prefectural head of Haizhou:

"Shuye asked his scouts where they had gone; the bandits had made their way to the coast and taken charge of ten huge ships. He then recruited a thousand dare-to-die men and arranged an ambush in a nearby city. Next he sent skirmishers to bring the bandits to battle. The strongest footsoldiers were placed by the sea. When troops from both sides clashed, he had the bandits' ships burned. When the bandits heard of this they lost their will to fight. The troops in ambush struck, capturing many of the bandits. Then Song Jiang surrendered. "

Nothing more is known of the historical Song Jiang or his companions after his surrender.

[Yun]

Song Jiang's nemesis in the novel, Fang La, actually had a much greater influence as a rebel leader. He is also said to have been a Manichaean.

[HaSY]

what is a Manichean?

[Yun]

http://www.irantour....ICHAEANISM.html

http://www.chinats.c.../intr120201.htm

http://www.fjqz.gov....ty/monijiao.htm

[HaSY]

I see......
Another religion from Persia....Does it still exists?

[Snafu]

Not that I know of. It was very popular with the Uighurs when they were still based in Mongolia, and the Tang, in turn, tolerated it to keep peace with the Uighurs. It was brought to China and central Asia by Sogdians mostly. It thrived briefly during the Tang dynasty and then again during the Yuan. But even at it's height I don't think it was ever a major religious force in China.

Wasn't An Lu-shan a Manichaean also?

[grandeur]

It was sad that Song Jiang made the wrong decision and brought all his brothers of submitting to the infamous goverment during that time. And from there the cunning Taishi and the unscrupulous Gao Qiu who was the prime minister planned and step by step disintegrated Song Jiang and his brothers. Taishi and Gao Qiu suggested to the emperor that Song Jiang and his brothers to prove thier loyalty by destroying the rebel at that time who was Fang La.

In the end many of the water margin's heroes died during fighting the Fang La. Eventually Fang La forces was subdued and Fang La was captured. After victory many brothers left Song Jiang, the rest who were with Song Jiang were poisoned to death by drinking wine that were offered by the evil dominated court.

This post has been edited by grandeur: 06 February 2006 - 10:06 AM

[Yun]

Quote

It was sad that Song Jiang made the wrong decision and brought all his brothers of submitting to the infamous goverment during that time. And from there the cunning Taishi and the unscrupulous Gao Qiu who was the prime minister planned and step by step disintegrated Song Jiang and his brothers. Taishi and Gao Qiu suggested to the emperor that Song Jiang and his brothers to prove thier loyalty by destroying the rebel at that time who was Fang La.

In the end many of the water margin's heroes died during fighting the Fang La. Eventually Fang La forces was subdued and Fang La was captured. After victory many brothers left Song Jiang, the rest who were with Song Jiang were poisoned to death by drinking wine that were offered by the evil dominated court.

This is all from the novel. We are talking about history.

The earliest historical sources on Song Jiang ("Buzei Ouzhan by Li Ruoshui and the anonymous "Xuanhe Yishi", dating from late Northern Song and late Southern Song respectively) state that he had only 35 followers when he surrendered to the Song court, not 107. They were all given noble titles and sent to different posts around the empire. According to Xuanhe Yishi, Song Jiang was involved in the suppression of Fang La and was promoted to Governor for it. There was no mention of Song Jiang's men dying in the war against Fang La. However, these sources are largely based on folk tales and may not be accurate.

There are alternate accounts of what happened to Song Jiang and his rebels:
1) The biography of Zhang Shuye in the Song Shi (Song dynastic history, written in the Yuan dynasty) says that in the 2nd month of 1121, Song Jiang was ambushed by Zhang Shuye the prefect of Haizhou and surrendered after his ships were burned and his assistants captured.

2) The tombstone of General Zhe Kecun, unearthed in Shaanxi, says that he served in Tong Guan's army suppressing Fang La's rebellion, and then was ordered to capture Song Jiang. Within a month, he had captured Song. The capture of Song Jiang was in the 5th month of 1121, according to the "Dongdu Shilue", and this tallies more with the timing of a capture by Zhe Kecun than a capture by Zhang Shuye.

3) The tombstone inscription of Wang Deng, written in the late Northern Song, claims that when Wang Deng was a military officer in Haizhou, he defeated Song Jiang's rebels and killed several tens of its leaders, forcing several thousands of other Liangshan rebels to surrender. However, the tombstone of Wang Deng's son Wang Shixin, written slightly later, claims that it was Wang Shixin who led the army himself to attack Song Jiang's rebels and defeated them, causing the rebels to flee - there is no mention of killing rebel leaders. This contradiction leads today's scholars to see these two tombstones as empty boasts without basis.

4) Hong Mai, a famous Southern Song writer, said in his "Yijian Yizhi" (a collection of anecdotes and folklore) that in 1124, Cai Juhou was leading an army in Yunzhou and 500 Liangshan rebels surrendered to him. He massacred them all. The following year, he died of illness in Nanjing (Jinling). Soon after, one of his good friends died too. Three days later, the friend revived from the dead and said that he had seen Cai Juhou being tortured in hell for having massacred the Liangshan rebels. However, this is a ghost story and may not be based on fact either.

[Liu Bei]

Kongmingx, on Mar 23 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

The character from Outlaws of Marsh, Song Jiang 宋江, was supposedly a historical figure. I also heard that he had a relationship with Yue Fei(I doubt it), and that he was very brave and a celebrated hero. Is this true, and what did he really do historically and did he have any effect on Song's politics?

How could Song Jiang had a relationship with Yue Fei? I heard that the only character from Outlaws of Marsh had a relationship with Yue Fei are Yang Qing, Huo Yandruo, Zhang Qing, Yuanxiao Wu, and Andao Quan.
I wonder if that is true?

[Moose]

I think Song Jiang existed 1 generation before Yue Fei. Yuan Xiao Wu was already dead,so he couldn't have any relationship with Yue Fei. The only character was HuYan Zhuo who died in "Yue Fei Zhuan"