[yimanrongdi]

" When exactly was the peak of Han Empire? This thread was splitted from the topic of "han vs Roman Empire" as it has gone rather off-topic. There were much debate over when was the peak of Han empire .
- please note that this thread contains many chinese historical terms and quite a number of chinese characters, it might be difficult for non-chinese speakers to read the entire thread if you're not familiar with them. "
GZ - admin

warhead, on Jun 21 2004, 04:46 PM, said:

No, Han peaks at roughly 35 b.c. not under Wudi, Wudi didn't even hold sway over the Tarim Basin and was still at war with xiongnu. Eastern Han's peak is roughly 93a.d. so its close to Rome's peak.

No, Territories expansion does not makes a peak, this is why academically people considered the peak of Tang during Tianbao instead of the regin under least-spirited Li Zhi when all four territories reached its peak. It depend very much on sense, regin of Yuandi is not usally considered as peak, and year 36 BC (peace with Xiongnu) is certainly not a vigorous start on, Xiongnu Xingguo (行国) had already initiated decline after 100 BCE, when there's no peak for Xiongnu, the peak went to Han, beacuse both were very much tied on politics. As for the Eastern Han, it basically fall apart from the peak after 105 AD, so it wasn't even close.

[deathdoom56]

The Chinese slowly declined over time so they were at their peak at beginning and slowly got weaker

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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No, Territories expansion does not makes a peak, this is why academically people considered the peak of Tang during Tianbao instead of the regin under least-spirited Li Zhi when all four territories reached its peak. It depend very much on sense, regin of Yuandi is not usally considered as peak, and year 36 BC (peace with Xiongnu) is certainly not a vigorous start on, Xiongnu Xingguo (行国) had already initiated decline after 100 BCE, when there's no peak for Xiongnu, the peak went to Han, beacuse both were very much tied on politics. As for the Eastern Han, it basically fall apart from the peak after 105 AD, so it wasn't even close.

No, absolutely not, I don't know how you even equate Han Wu di's reign as peak of Han, strength is determined by 3 major factors: Military strength, economic strength, and political influence. In all three area Yuan Di has surpassed Wudi, the amount of vassals, sphere of influence, resource, and number of subjects as well as size of reserve and conscript troops and number of garrisons abroad all greatly surpass that of Wu di. Other than the fact that Wu Di is a good emperor with many good geneal at his disposle doesn't make his time superior in power. If you judge spirit of a country as strength you can say that the U.S. is stronger 100 years ago than it is today. U.S. during the cold war also has far more weapon and spirit at its disposle, i is more powerful than today? Communist China would also be far stronger 50 years ago than it is today. But they are not. Power is influence and potential that cannot be effetively exercise does not make it powerful. Wudi didn't even subdue the xiongnu yet. Power is not simply what the internal structure is but more importantly how it compares to external forces, in this case both Eastern Han and Yuan Di's period was superior in strength to Wudi.
I fail to see how the Tien Bao regime is superior in strength to Zheng Guan, even spirit wise, Zheng Guan's troops had far more zeal and fighting capability. I assume by superior you mean culture because no freaken way that Tien Bao even come close to Zheng Guan in power.

[yimanrongdi]

warhead, on Jun 22 2004, 06:21 PM, said:

No, absolutely not, I don't know how you even equate Han Wu di's reign as peak of Han, strength is determined by 3 major factors: Military strength, economic strength, and political influence. In all three area Yuan Di has surpassed Wudi, the amount of vassals, sphere of influence, resource, and number of subjects as well as size of reserve and conscript troops and number of garrisons abroad all greatly surpass that of Wu di. Other than the fact that Wu Di is a good emperor with many good geneal at his disposle doesn't make his time superior in power. If you judge spirit of a country as strength you can say that the U.S. is stronger 100 years ago than it is today. U.S. during the cold war also has far more weapon and spirit at its disposle, i is more powerful than today? Communist China would also be far stronger 50 years ago than it is today. But they are not. Power is influence and potential that cannot be effetively exercise does not make it powerful. Wudi didn't even subdue the xiongnu yet. Power is not simply what the internal structure is but more importantly how it compares to external forces, in this case both Eastern Han and Yuan Di's period was superior in strength to Wudi.
I fail to see how the Tien Bao regime is superior in strength to Zheng Guan, even spirit wise, Zheng Guan's troops had far more zeal and fighting capability. I assume by superior you mean culture because no freaken way that Tien Bao even come close to Zheng Guan in power.

刑法志第三
汉兴，高祖躬神武之材，行宽仁之厚，总揽英雄，以诛秦、项。任萧、曹之文，用良、平之谋，骋陆、郦之辩，明叔孙通之仪，文武相配，大略举焉。天下既定，踵秦而置材官于郡国，京师有南、北军之屯。至武帝平百粤，内增七校，外有楼船，皆岁时讲肄，修武备云。至元帝时，以贡禹议，始罢角抵，而未正治兵振旅之事也。
Wudi was surpassed than Yuandi in term of troops, which had far more zeal and militancy than Yuandi.

I have not idea what the hell you're nagging about. Also please show me your source that the military strength, economic strength, and political influence of under Yuandi and Chengdi (as the fact the division of Xiongnu had nothing to do with them) was surpassed that of Wudi and Xuandi regin. There's no peak during Yuandi regin, Yuandi was often criticise as a curse of the declined 宣帝中兴 Xuandi regin. Also, I didn't even mentioned anything about Zhenguan (Li Shimin), I had no idea why did you started out, the internal structure of Zhengguan was mess, there were plenty of enemies, the surrounded relationship was not yet built (even if it did, it had sooner destroyed), both military strength (territory stabilized) and economic strength of Zhengguan were not as good as Kaiyuan (well, sorry not Tiaobao) and Wu Zetian regime. Please awake.

[Yun]

OK, I knew I'd one day see Warhead and Yimanrongdi argue, and it would get very heated. I'm the moderator of this part of the forum, so you guys better debate in a less emotional and personal manner, otherwise I'll be forced to delete the whole thread.

If you find it easier to debate each other in Chinese, please feel free to do so. I will summarise your points in English for the benefit of members who can't read Chinese. Both of you are very knowledgable in Chinese history, so I actually look foward to reading your arguments in Chinese. Just don't start insulting each other again.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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Wudi was surpassed than Yuandi in term of troops, which had far more zeal and militancy than Yuandi.

Show me your source that Wu Di had more troops. And do show me how they are more efficient, as Han Shu once mentioned, Cheng Tang, the general who destroyed Zhi Zhi's empire in 36 b.c. once said that one Han soldier equal several barbarian (Wusun) troops.

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Also please show me your source that the military strength, economic strength, and political influence of under Yuandi and Chengdi (as the fact the division of Xiongnu had nothing to do with them) was surpassed that of Wudi and Xuandi regin.

Read H. Dubb's economic journal on the Han to see for yourself on the economic comparison. The population under Wudi didn't surpass 40 million. While the census in 2 a.d. shows a population roughly 59,590,000 so yes its more in both population and GDP(but not in per capita).
Do I really need to explain political influence? You should know that yourself, during Yuan Di, Han's influence spread into the Aral sea, the Wusun, Kangu, Wu Huan, Xiong Nu all recognized Han supremacy, none of which recognized Wudi's supremacy. Wudi didn't even control the Tarim Basin yet. The protector general's status started in 60 b.c. and held an absolute control over the 50 states of the Tarim in which Wudi merely had Hami and Loulan and both of which are ready to switch allegience to xiongnu the instance they gain a victory. Under Yuan Di over a quarter of the world's population and resource lay in the hand of the celestial empire. Under Wudi only a sixth lay in the hand of Han.

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There's no peak during Yuandi regin, Yuandi was often criticise as a curse of the declined 宣帝中兴 Xuandi regin.

you are talking internal politics, but on the world scale for the Han as a world power, Yuan Di's reign is the height of Han power.

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Also, I didn't even mentioned anything about Zhenguan (Li Shimin), I had no idea why did you started out, the internal structure of Zhengguan was mess, there were plenty of enemies, the surrounded relationship was not yet built (even if it did, it had sooner destroyed), both military strength (territory stabilized) and economic strength of Zhengguan were not as good as Kaiyuan (well, sorry not Tiaobao) and Wu Zetian regime. Please awake.

No, there wasn't plenty of enemies, what the hell are you talking about? during Zheng Guan, Tang reigned supreme in all four directions it controlled the Tu Jue, Kitan, tarim and Tubo was a vassal. The empire streched all the way to Siberia in which the Tie Le tribes of Xue Yang Tuo, Bai Ku han, and Uighurs weer all under Tang protectorate, under Kai Yuan none of them was, Tu Jue was independent and raided occasionally, Tubo was extremely powerful and was a competitor to Tang in the west, the Turgis empire is constanly revolting and so were the Kitans and Xi, Silla and BoHai were also competely independent. On the world scale, During Zheng Guan and Gao Zong's reigns Tang was the only supreme power, it ruled a third of the world's population. Under Kai Yuan, Yarlung Tubo, and the Umayyad Caliph were both great powers, the Ummayad is even larger than the Tang although not as powerful. Kai Yuan is richer and superior internally if thats what you are talking about, but on the world scale Kai Yuan doesn't come even close to Zheng Guan. You think Zheng Guan is a mess? Did you forget about An Shi revolt? During Tien Bao, the emperor could barely control his army!
As for Wu Ze Tien's Sheng Shen Zhou Chao been superior to Zheng Guan's reign in power, wake up yourself, her army could barely coupe with the Kitan rebellion and the raid of the Khan Mocho of Tujue. There were a lot of rebellions, such as one in 684 when she took power. The zeal of her soldiers are poor. This is clearly mentioned by Li Zhen Kui general of the Korean campaign in one of his letters he claim that his soldiers are poor and all they wanted to do is go home. He asked a soldier why? The soldier answered during the time of Tai Zong, every soldier is rewarded and so they fought with zeal, yet by the fifth year (660a.d.) the soldiers are no longer paid and rewarded well or granted ranks so they had no zeal to fight. The Fu Bing system was cleary in decline by 660a.d. and it became so inefficient that in 737A.D. the emperor decreed an order to created a permanent professional army on the border this strengthened the army yet weakened central control.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

And you still haven't answered to this, if you categorize zeal as power of empire, Rome would not be at its height under Trajan but under Julius Caesar, Marius, Sulla or Scipio. Roman historian clearly mentioned that during the empire, Roman fighting zeal and patriotism were gone and praised the time of the Republic.
Eastern Han and late western Han also had much xiongnu auxiliars to use none of which arein Wu Di's troops.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

You also seem to forget that by the end of Wudi's reign Han was in virtual bankrupcy because of war and didn't fully heel until Xuan Di. When Han is still rich, it was still paying annual subsidy to xiongnu and its empire didn't even strech to the south yet.

[Book of Faith]

Yun, on Jun 23 2004, 02:54 AM, said:

OK, I knew I'd one day see Warhead and Yimanrongdi argue, and it would get very heated. I'm the moderator of this part of the forum, so you guys better debate in a less emotional and personal manner, otherwise I'll be forced to delete the whole thread.

If you find it easier to debate each other in Chinese, please feel free to do so. I will summarise your points in English for the benefit of members who can't read Chinese. Both of you are very knowledgable in Chinese history, so I actually look foward to reading your arguments in Chinese. Just don't start insulting each other again.

No, no, please don't post in Chinese. While this forum is devoted to discussing Chinese History, it is asked that you don't do so in foreign languages. While I'm sure you could summarize it, Yun, I would hate for people who don't speak Chinese(the majority I would presume) to miss the the whole thing.

[yimanrongdi]

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Show me your source that Wu Di had more troops. And do show me how they are more efficient, as Han Shu once mentioned, Cheng Tang, the general who destroyed Zhi Zhi's empire in 36 b.c. once said that one Han soldier equal several barbarian (Wusun) troops.

I had already shown that they're more effective than Yuandi, infact you should show one. Yuandi's troops won the war (more effective) simply beacuse Xiongnu was more weaker than it is since Wudi, basically more divided. Wudi troops were more effective, beacuse they won more victories from 133-90 BC than just a single battle war in 36 b.c. Also Chen Tang never mentioned anything about Wusun, he said one Han is equal to five Hu soldiers when their metallurgy was weak, he (even he himself became disability after the injuredly war in 36 BC) said that when Xiyu was attacked by Wusun in later years under Yuandi. It is basically a cliche 夫胡兵五而当汉兵一, beaucse you and me know, that there's no way for one Han soldier to kill every five hu in every major battles.

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Read H. Dubb's economic journal on the Han to see for yourself on the economic comparison. The population under Wudi didn't surpass 40 million. While the census in 2 a.d. shows a population roughly 59,590,000 so yes its more in both population and GDP(but not in per capita).
Do I really need to explain political influence? You should know that yourself, during Yuan Di, Han's influence spread into the Aral sea, the Wusun, Kangu, Wu Huan, Xiong Nu all recognized Han supremacy, none of which recognized Wudi's supremacy. Wudi didn't even control the Tarim Basin yet. The protector general's status started in 60 b.c. and held an absolute control over the 50 states of the Tarim in which Wudi merely had Hami and Loulan and both of which are ready to switch allegience to xiongnu the instance they gain a victory. Under Yuan Di over a quarter of the world's population and resource lay in the hand of the celestial empire. Under Wudi only a sixth lay in the hand of Han.

Who's Dubb, I hope he does know what you're talking about. During Wudi, Han's influence spread into Dayuan so what's the point. The goal of the Wudi regin was the cut off Xiongnu right arm terrtiory (Gansu) which was basically done, there's no need for him to annxed all tarim (as which was done by Xuandi). Any pre-2 AD census was doubtful, which was merely recorded in Hou Hanshu of a passage of Diwang Shiji, whatever it is, 59millions was the peak of population of entire Han, which was seen as 汉极盛矣 and 汉之极盛也, but that does not meant Pingdi was the peak of Han Dynasty, don't be such twisted.

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No, there wasn't plenty of enemies, what the hell are you talking about? during Zheng Guan, Tang reigned supreme in all four directions it controlled the Tu Jue, Kitan, tarim and Tubo was a vassal. The empire streched all the way to Siberia in which the Tie Le tribes of Xue Yang Tuo, Bai Ku han, and Uighurs weer all under Tang protectorate, under Kai Yuan none of them was, Tu Jue was independent and raided occasionally, Tubo was extremely powerful and was a competitor to Tang in the west, the Turgis empire is constanly revolting and so were the Kitans and Xi, Silla and BoHai were also competely independent. On the world scale, During Zheng Guan and Gao Zong's reigns Tang was the only supreme power, it ruled a third of the world's population. Under Kai Yuan, Yarlung Tubo, and the Umayyad Caliph were both great powers, the Ummayad is even larger than the Tang although not as powerful. Kai Yuan is richer and superior internally if thats what you are talking about, but on the world scale Kai Yuan doesn't come even close to Zheng Guan. You think Zheng Guan is a mess? Did you forget about An Shi revolt? During Tien Bao, the emperor could barely control his army!
As for Wu Ze Tien's Sheng Shen Zhou Chao been superior to Zheng Guan's reign in power, wake up yourself, her army could barely coupe with the Kitan rebellion and the raid of the Khan Mocho of Tujue. There were a lot of rebellions, such as one in 684 when she took power. The zeal of her soldiers are poor. This is clearly mentioned by Li Zhen Kui general of the Korean campaign in one of his letters he claim that his soldiers are poor and all they wanted to do is go home. He asked a soldier why? The soldier answered during the time of Tai Zong, every soldier is rewarded and so they fought with zeal, yet by the fifth year (660a.d.) the soldiers are no longer paid and rewarded well or granted ranks so they had no zeal to fight. The Fu Bing system was cleary in decline by 660a.d. and it became so inefficient that in 737A.D. the emperor decreed an order to created a permanent professional army on the border this strengthened the army yet weakened central control.

No, there were plenty of enemies, like Liang Shidu duirng Zhengguan (627-49), and Tubo was never a vessal of Zhengguan, Li Shimin was force to marry a princess to Songtsan in a victory battle of Songzhou 638 AD, furthermore he was force to retreated during an expedition to western Liaoning of 645, which he saw the local regime (Gaoliju) was equal that of early Tang, so what's your point on Khitan part of Wu Zetian anyway. What's so wrong of Zhengguan is that court struggling was the mere curse, Wu Zetian does had court struggling but not corrupted as like Zhengguan. And you really ought to read something about the so called siberia parts history, it was not merely annxed in Zhengguan but Longshuo. And that Ten Jiedu was a great stability for outer and inner Tang territory of Kaiyuan, I don't see anything wrong with that (except its went wrong in Tianbao).

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You also seem to forget that by the end of Wudi's reign Han was in virtual bankrupcy because of war and didn't fully heel until Xuan Di. When Han is still rich, it was still paying annual subsidy to xiongnu and its empire didn't even strech to the south yet.

Which was why under Xuandi it was called as Zhong Xing 中兴, during Wudi its simply known as peak. The south was more or less annnxed by the end of Wudi, no local tribesman could even set up a regime, even if it did (in which never) it cannot be seen as separated parts.

[Yun]

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Who's Dubb, I hope he does know what you're talking about.

YMRD, Homer Dubbs was a well-known Sinologist at Oxford University in the first half of the 20th century. His specialty was in Han history. Warhead, can you give the full citation for Dubbs' book so that YMRD can check it up?

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What's so wrong of Zhengguan is that court struggling was the mere curse, Wu Zetian does had court struggling but not corrupted as like Zhengguan. And you really ought to read something about the so called siberia parts history, it was not merely annxed in Zhengguan but Longshuo.

Ok, let me translate this into English that the others can understand :blink:
"What was wrong with the Zhenguan reign period (i.e. the reign of Tang Taizong) was that internal political struggles at court were a real curse. Wu Zetian's reign did have court struggles as well, but not as serious as in Zhenguan. And you really ought to read something about the history of the 'Siberian region', it was not really annexed in Zhenguan but actually in the Longshuo reign period (i.e. 661-663, under Taizong's son Gaozong [Li Zhi])."

I'm sure many of you guys aren't familiar with the Tang reign period names that Warhead and YMRD are throwing around. For now, just remember that besides Zhenguan being the reign of Tang Taizong, Kaiyuan is the first two-thirds of the reign of Tang Xuanzong and Tianbao is the last one-third.

[thirdgumi]

Yun, I think you realy shouldn't translate yimanrongdi's words, you might miss some of his points (interpertation is very personal), let the forumites ask if they don't understand.

[deathdoom56]

Please dont post in Chinese, we poor Japanese people cant rad it

[Yun]

OK, BoF, Thirdgumi and Deathdoom - I get what you mean. I'll only rephrase or clarify some sentences that I think are important and useful for everybody, but are too difficult to understand in their present form. I was just feeling what a pity it was that YMRD and Warhead have such deep analyses but many of us are confused by what they're writing.

Anyway, YMRD and Warhead: you can continue to quote some passages in the original Chinese, like what YMRD is already doing now. It's clearer that way for those of us who can read it. I will definitely entertain any request to translate that passage into English.

[RollingWave]

Heh.... seems we have strayed quiet a bit from the original topic no ...?:P B)

I think we have some basic disagreement here of what define as a peak too....