12 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

This has already been mentioned in the "Chinese Legends and Myths" forum at

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=149

For a brief outline, I should re-mention them again. The "San Huang Wu Di 三皇五帝" (3 Clan-rulers and 5 Emperors) are said to be the ancestors of Chinese people. Most of their stories have been passed down as legends

The 3 clan-rulers (3 Huang) are:

1. Suiren Clan (燧人氏) [Fire clan] - said to have invented the technique of creating fire from flint stones

2. Fuxi Clan (伏羲氏) [Fisherman clan] - said to have invented the fish net for fishing.

3. Shennong Clan (神农氏) [Farmers clan] - said to have invented agriculture and farming

The 3 clan-rulers was said to appear around 5000-2500 BC, during the neolithic period
At that time, it was still a matriarchy society (female ruled society).

By around 2500 BC, Chinese society turned towards a patriachy society which came the legendary myths of 5 Emperors.

The 5 emperor (5 Di) are:

1. Huangdi (黄帝) [Yellow Emperor]

2. Zhuanxu (颛顼) (grand son of Yellow Emperor)

3. Diku (帝喾) (great grandson of Yellow Emperor)

4. Yao (尧), or Tang Yao (唐尧)

5. Shun (舜), or Yu Shun (虞舜)

After the 5 emperor's period, the next ruler came to be known as Yu (禹), who was the founder of Xia dynasty (2100 BC-1600 BC). The 5 emperors period existed a form of tribal-alliance system whereby the alliance chietain's position was passed on to the most capable person (known as the "Shanrang system 禅让制度"), instead of to his son or any family members. The famous story of "Yao-Shun's Shanrang" (尧舜禅让) speaks precisely of this.

Yu, on the other hand, was famous for his action taken to help stop the flood of the Yellow River. According to legend, his father Gun (鲧) was summoned by Yao to solve the problem of flood from Yellow River. Gun attempted to build dykes to stop flood, but the higher the dykes was built, the water level rose and overflowed. Gun was unsuccessful in solving this problem and was dismissed for this. Yao summoned Yu to solve this problem. Yu studied this and visited many places. He finally realised that the only solution to solve this was to divert the flow of the river to the lower region (delta) of yellow river. He noticed a mountain between the boundary of Shanxi and Shaanxi province which blocked the flow, and thus built a hole for the river to pass through to the lower region which continued till the ocean. For this, he spent some 13 years and was successful. For this, he was later made the chieftain of the tribal-alliance.

After Yu died, his position was passed on to his son Qi (启), and the system changed from "Shanrang" to "Shixi 世袭" system, whereby the ruler's position is passed on to the next family member (notably the ruler's son) after he died. Thus, began the existence of dynasty (a time period ruled by a family with the same surname).

[General_Zhaoyun]

I should talk briefly about the stories of 5 emperors, most of which existed as legends, but recorded in "Shiji" (records of Grand Historian). Much of these can be taken as 'pre-historical legends'.

The battle of Huangdi against Chiyou 黄帝大战蚩尤, and Huaxia Civilization 华夏文明

It was said that by around 2500 BC, there existed several tribes forming a conferation or alliance (部落联盟) in the upper region of Yellow River in China. The leader (Chieftain) of this tribal alliance was Huang Di (黄帝). Huang Di was a very capable leader. He built houses for his people, taught them farming, agriculture and animal-rearing. He also taught them how to make tools and equipped his people with weaponry. Later, he led his forces and conquer another tribe led by Yan Di (炎帝), another capable chief. Both the Huangdi tribes and Yandi tribes formed an alliance, in which Huangdi became the chieftain while Yandi became the vice-chieftain. Over the time, this confederation grew stronger and its civilization grew across Yellow River. The saying that "the chinese people are Yan-Huang's descendents 炎黄子孙 " refers precisely to these two rulers. This tribal alliance of Yan-huang was called "Yan-huang" tribal-alliance and existed in north-west China.

The Tribal-alliance of Huangdi was strong. But there were two other tribes-alliances in co-existence in China during this time. The first one was the "Dong Yi" tribal-alliance (东夷集团) in the eastern part of China. In the South was the "Miao Man" tribal-alliance (苗蛮集团). Both of these were conquered by the Huang-di tribal-alliance, which later developed and established the Xia dynasty (2100 BC). The people of this civilization came to be known as the "Hua Xia 华夏" people, where "Hua" means "beautiful" and "Xia" refers to Xia dynasty.

What most interesting about the battle was Huangdi's battle against one of the tribes of Dongyi alliance. This tribe was called "9 Li" or "Jiu Li" tribe (九黎部落) and the chieftain was called "Chiyou 蚩尤 ". Legends said that Chiyou was a very capable fighter with his people having monstrous forces and charms.

In one battle, Chiyou threw a force of fogs/mist to the army of Huangdi. The soldiers of Huangdi was confused and trapped by this fog. In order to solve this problem, Huangdi invented the compass, which guide his soldiers out of the fog. Defeated by this, Chiyou raged the weather storm against the Huangdi soldiers, and attempted to drown them with these storm. Huangdi invited the Han-shen Ba (旱神魃), who was a demon capable of clearing the storm with his heat. Then, the huang-di forces defeated Chiyou's forces at the battle of Zhuo Lu (涿鹿之战).

[somechineseperson]

AFAIK the traditional Confucian position is to treat everything after King Yao as real history and the history before him as semi-history/legends. The oldest historical text in China, and one of the Confucian Five Classics, Shang Shu (尚书), only go as far back as King Yao. However, IMHO it is also possible that many sections of the Shang Shu became lost after the infamous Qin Dynasty "burning of books". The original Shang Shu is said to have contained more sections than the one currently available.

[virgilio]

Hello everybody.
It is often said that Huangdi and Yandi allied and fighted together, but I can't find the precise source for this statement.
Could anybody help me?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hello everybody.
It is often said that Huangdi and Yandi allied and fighted together, but I can't find the precise source for this statement.
Could anybody help me?

For ancient Chinese history sources, there are none (as far as I know). Even Shiji did not mention that Huangdi and Yandi allied or fought together. Shiji only mentioned that Huangdi and Yandi fought at Ban Quan 阪泉, but Yandi lost. These are actually legends.

I do not know where this legend of 'Huangdi and Yandi fighting together against Chiyou" originated from or which source it came from.

[Korin]

Wheres Nuwa?

[f0ma]

Wheres Nuwa?

 

Nuwa is sometimes considered to be one of the three sovereigns, depending on the source.

[Korin]

But so was Fuxi and who was the third sovereign and if they were that, what was the three huang then? 

[f0ma]

But so was Fuxi and who was the third sovereign and if they were that, what was the three huang then? 

 

Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors

 

Nuwa often replaces Zhurong, Suiren or the Yellow Emperor. When Nuwa is included, it seems to always be Nuwa, Fuxi and Shennong.

[Korin]

Okay thanks, but I don't get why each source has it's own opinion.

[mohistManiac]

It's like an ancient Chinese election.  Yellow emperor doesn't seem to have that many votes.  Someone in the Liangzhu taxpayers' association would have gotten my vote.

[ahxiang]

Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors

 

Nuwa often replaces Zhurong, Suiren or the Yellow Emperor. When Nuwa is included, it seems to always be Nuwa, Fuxi and Shennong.

 

Bamboo Annals was one of the few pre-Qin works that did not get burnt. From the Sinitic point of view, everything started form Huangdi, not anyone prior to him. Yandi, Nuwa eta l were often cited by Zhuang-zi et al from Chu, namely, southern China, or the competitor to Sinitic China. Yandi and Nuwa could be contemporaries to Huangdi. Though, there were indeed people who lived in Shandong before the mid-3rd millennium BCE. I treated them as possibly Sinitic-Yi admixture.

 

I just commented on that thread about the relationship between Yi, Yue people and the original islanders in Japan. Would paste here to make a whole case:

 

 

...., I could probably say that the original people along the Chinese coast and in japan were probably of the same family. China's classics was right to say the original Japanese shared the same customs as the people in the Yangtze delta. Later, the Yamato people crossed the sea from Korea to conquer this early group of island people in Japan to become the ruling class.

 

As far as the original people in Shandong was concerned, they were similar to the islanders in Japan. Confucius had a reasoning to wonder aloud where the Nine Yi went and he wanted to cross the sea to meet them.

 

The other twist was that the possibly admixtured Sinitic-Yi people, descendants of Yandi-Chiyou, were defeated by Huangdi in the mid-3rd millennium BCE and were then exiled to Northwest China to become the Jiang-surnamed Sanmiao (Sanmiao being three descendants, with possibility of including the same Ji-surnamed Huangdi lineages who were counted as infilial sons) and the Ji-surnamed and/or Yun-surnamed Xianyun barbarians. Those exiles in Northwest China were to become ancestors of Qiangs and Tibetans and the Chi-di & White-di (i.e., the Huns).

Edited by ahxiang, 11 May 2013 - 12:23 PM.