[HaSY]

i am not sure about this term....i only know that it refers to Mongols and Manchus......well...is this correct?
any info would be appreciated...

[Yun]

The Tatars were a Turko-Mongol tribe who were the enemies of Genghis Khan's tribe (his father Yesugei was murdered by Tartars), but for some reason during the Ming the Mongols all came to be known as 'Dada' or 'Dazi' to the Han Chinese, and various tribes in the Central Asian region also called themelves Tatars. Later on, anti-Manchu people also used the term to refer to the Manchus. In the West, all Asian nomads have been incorrectly known as 'Tartars' since the Mongol invasions, and they were associated with demons because of Tartarus, the hell of Greek religion.

The Tartars of today number about 5.5 million in Russia, 500,000 in Uzbekistan, 350,000 in Kazakhstan, 90,000 in Ukraine, 75,000 in Tajikistan, and 70,000 in Krygyzstan. There are only 6,000-7,000 in Xinjiang, China, and these have all become Muslims - they are the 4th smallest ethnic group in China. There are also Tatars living in 13 other countries, including Turkey, Afghanistan, Romania, and Finland. Approximately 10,000 Tatar live in New York and San Francisco.

Only about 1,000 of the Chinese Tatars still speak their language, which is of the Turkic family. They have no written language of their own, and most use the Uyghur or Kazakh script.

The Tatars in Russia now have their own autonomous republic, called Tatarstan or Tartaristan. More information can be found here:

http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=51
http://www.ozturkler...007/0007_03.htm
http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history
http://www.geocities.../Tatar_FAQ.html
http://www.tatar.ru/english

[xiangyu]

The Tatar ethnic group in China has a population of about 10,000, most of whom live in the towns of Yining, Tacheng, and Urumqi in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. The Tatars historically named the "Dadan", are descended from a branch of a Mongolian tribe, who used to inhabit the region near the Volga River. From the beginning of the 20th century, the Tatars gradually settled in Xinjiang. Most of them were occupied as merchants. The Tatar nationality has its own language, which belongs to Turkic branch of the Altaic language family. However, as a result of frequent contact with the Uygur and Kazak people, the Tatars also use Kazak or Uygur language. The Tatars' written language is based on Arabic letters, but now they often also use Kazak and Uygur characters.

[tongyan]

xiangyu, on Feb 21 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

The Tatar ethnic group in China has a population of about 10,000, most of whom live in the towns of Yining, Tacheng, and Urumqi in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. The Tatars historically named the "Dadan", are descended from a branch of a Mongolian tribe, who used to inhabit the region near the Volga River. From the beginning of the 20th century, the Tatars gradually settled in Xinjiang. Most of them were occupied as merchants. The Tatar nationality has its own language, which belongs to Turkic branch of the Altaic language family. However, as a result of frequent contact with the Uygur and Kazak people, the Tatars also use Kazak or Uygur language. The Tatars' written language is based on Arabic letters, but now they often also use Kazak and Uygur characters.

When you use the term "Dadan" are you referring to the characters "韃靼"? If so, then I believe the correct pronunciation of the word to be "Da-da" in mandarin and "Taat-daat" in cantonese. This would correspond more closely to the latin rendering of the name "Tatar" Many people seem to make the mistake of pronouncing any characters with the 旦 as a part of it as "dan" when it can sometimes be "da" as well.

[Yun]

Thanks for the pointer, Tongyan. There are some differences between Xiangyu's info and mine, so could someone step in and verify the details on:

1) Tatar population in China

2) The Tatar 'written language'?

Thanks!

[Gubook Janggoon]

Also is there a connection w/ these people and Tartar sauce?

[Snafu]

Tatar/Tartar actually comes from "tata", the old Mongolian word for nomad (it literally means "to haul."). The Chinese and Europeans obviously borrowed the term from the nomads themselves. There's a lot of confusion about the word because many steppe tribes used it in their names (The 30 tatars, the Buir lake tatars, etc.) One of these tribes killed Genghis Khan's father, which undoubtedly lead to the demise of the term among the nomads. But it continued to live on for centuries in China and Europe, and still lives today (even though it no longer means nomad).

[hansioux]

Snafu, on Feb 23 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

Tatar/Tartar actually comes from  "tata",  the old Mongolian word for nomad (it literally means "to haul.").  The Chinese and Europeans obviously borrowed the term from the nomads themselves. There's a lot of confusion about the word because many steppe tribes used it in their names (The 30 tatars, the Buir lake tatars, etc.) One of these tribes killed Genghis Khan's father, which undoubtedly lead to the demise of the term among the nomads. But it continued to live on for centuries in China and Europe, and still lives today (even though it no longer means nomad).

Thanks Snafu, most informative!

[Karakhan]

Modern Tatars is a broad classification of many different Turkic tribes that did not fall along some of the major categories like Kazakh, Uzbek, etc. Furthermore classification of Turkic races in general was mostly done by Soviet and Chinese ethnologists since in terms of identity, these different groups mostly identified with their clan than a modern sense of ethnicity, and the languages were all relatively intelligible with each other.

In any case modern Tatars also range in physical types, primarily those with Finnic strains and Mongoloid strains, and inbetwee. (some like Crimean Tatars have caucasoid strains)

a better description can be find here
http://www.geocities...FAQ-shs005.html

Most of the ones in Xinjiang are the Finnic and Caucasoid one. I manage to meet one Chinese Tatar who had good Chinese (mandarin), Uighur and English. She was thin, very fair and had blonde hair, blue eyes, could easily pass as your average white American. But because of these features, she was looked very highly among her Uighur peers in Xinjiang she told me... simply because she looked European.

[Daniel]

I believe I read an article in Military History last year about Aleksandr Nevski that mentioned that the word "Tartar" literally means "fight-fight." Wikipedia says that the name comes from the Ta-Ta Mongol tribe in the 5th century. Which is true, or are they both true?

Wikipedia says that "Tartar" is simply a word for all of the Turkic speaking peoples of Asia and Europe. But that seems strange, as I have met people in China who list "Tartar" as a separate nationality from "Uighur," "Kazakh" and "Tajik,"* all of whom I believe are Turkic speaking. I have also heard the Mongols called Tartars, and I don't know if Mongol is a Turkic language or not.

Another thing I am unclear on: are the words "Tartar" and "Tatar" interchangeable or not?

(Embarrassed edit: Oops, I meant Uzbek, not Tajik).

[Snafu]

Tartar in the modern sense refers to a distinct ethnic group. The name is derived from Tata, an old Mongolian word for nomad. Some steppe tribes used the word in their names and this is probably where the Chinese got it. When the Mongols moved west Europeans picked up the word and changed it to "Tartar" to make a pun that the Mongols were from Tartarus (Hell). The name eventually died out in Asia but lived on in the west.

[Daniel]

OK, the link and answers clear things up a bit. Thank you.

I would like to know whether there is a continuity between A) the original Tata Mongols whose name meant nomad or "to haul," and B) the Tatars who killed Genghis Khan's father, and C) the Tartars of today who live mostly in Russia, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan.

I see that Yun mentioned that the Tartars of Xinjiang are almost all Muslim. What religion are most modern Tartars? I know that Timur the Lame aka Timur-i-Lenk aka Tamerlane was Muslim, and I always hear him called "Tatar."