[south]

Kai Yuan and Qian Long are considered the two greatest periods in Chinese history. each spanned many decades and during both times, peace was kept, foreign conquests was taken. Prosperity and population grew. Whic period do you think was better overall for the people? Please state your reason.

[Koolasuchus]

south, on Apr 11 2005, 02:17 PM, said:

Kai Yuan and Qian Long are considered the two greatest periods in Chinese history. each spanned many decades and during both times, peace was kept, foreign conquests was taken. Prosperity and population grew. Whic period do you think was better overall for the people? Please state your reason.

Off topic:
Your poll looks wacky.

On topic:
Kaiyuan was better overrall because there was no large scale persecution sanctioned by the emperor.

[TMPikachu]

when did they take place? I'm unfamiliar with these names.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The Qian Long was much better for the overall commoners. Kai Yuan's growth is nothing in comparison by its speed and scope. Kai Yuan conquered no new territories, it only created new prefectures.
Granted as a world power, Kai Yuan and Qian Long is roughly on a par. Both had roughly close to a third of humanity under their control.
But as a regional power, Kai Yuan is a lot weaker. There was no conscription during Qian Long, The empire was at a peace unseen for ages. Under Kai Yuan, there was huge armies placed on the borders due to threats. During Qian Long, all the neibours are subjugated, during Kai Yuan virtually all the neibours are hostile. The Tujue might have been at peace but they continued small scale raiding, and a huge garrison are required to hold them in check. Where the Khalka Mongols gave almost no trouble during Qian Long except for a brief moment during the 1756 campaign but was quickly crushed. The Khitan, Xi, and Bo Hai of Manchuria constantly caused problems and required some 150,000 troop to hold down during the Kai Yuan. The Turgis constantly rebelled during Kai Yuan while the Zungars never posed a problem in Qian Long's time(granted thats because Qian Long exterminated them ruthlessly.) Tibet is even more troublesome, during KaiYuan tibet was not only a pest, but a threat and challenge against Tang supremacy. The Tarim Basin was nearly wrestled from Tang in the 720s, huge armies of over 200,000 are required to hold them down. While during Qing, Tibet was never a problem and little troops are required. Qian Long also solved the long problem of flooding and created many dams. So Qian Long was a relatively more stable era, more peaceful, more secure and better managed.

[Yun]

Is anyone going to argue that Zhenguan and/or Kangxi were better?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I would say Zheng Guan was better than Kang Xi. I have strong doubts that Kang Xi's reign even achieved the height that it boasted, considering there was the fiscal crisis that Yong Zheng had to solve.
Zheng Guan is also more powerful even regionally, since during Kang Xi the kalmuks and Russians still loom over the borders although they are any serious threat.

[General_Zhaoyun]

TMPikachu, on Apr 12 2005, 08:44 AM, said:

when did they take place? I'm unfamiliar with these names.

Qianlong era took place during Emperor Qianlong of Qing dynasty

Kai Yuan era took place during Emperor Tang Ming Huang of Tang dynasty.

Both period were considered the peak period of each dynasty.

[Goujian]

That's funny comparison, considering there is almost a thousand year difference. Well, in a thousand years from now, what will we the human beings achieve? A thousand years before Hai Yuan era, China was really tiny.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

we are actually comparing relative progress as well. But more importantly, for the common people s whole.

[Goujian]

If Qian Long era started industrial revolution, relative to the world history, I would vote that Qian Long era was equally impressive as Kai Yuan.

[Lu Xun]

Kai Yuan, during Qian Long's reign China already started to decline.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"If Qian Long era started industrial revolution, relative to the world history, I would vote that Qian Long era was equally impressive as Kai Yuan. "

And what revolution have the Kai Yuan introduced? Qian Long's reign did introduce new plant species such as corn from importation, and many of these new American plants enabled further cultivation of different area of China, thus even during the Qian Long era, the Qing's per capita GDP is roughly on a par with those of Europe, and far ahead of the Islamic worlds. Industrial revolution has not taken any great advance during the 18th century, the real pace only began after 1820. The Qing during Qian Long is still one of the most advanced civilization on earth and its regional political power is a lot greater than Kai Yuan.

[Grigori]

Why was the Qing dynasty able to dominate regionally in ways previous dynasties could not? I have my theories but am not entirely satisfied with them, would like to hear yours.

[snowybeagle]

Grigori, on Apr 16 2005, 01:40 PM, said:

Why was the Qing dynasty able to dominate regionally in ways previous dynasties could not? I have my theories but am not entirely satisfied with them, would like to hear yours.

Good question. I have some ideas too, but I'll start a new thread in the Qing dynasty folder since its primary focus in on the era.

I've given my thoughts in the new thread in the Qing folder
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=3660&hl=

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 17 April 2005 - 03:44 AM

[bhchao]

Kaiyuan took place from 713-742. I consider it better than the Qianlong reign.

Actually Tang Ming Huang's reign was divided into Kaiyuan and Tianbao (742-756). Tianbao was the period where he fell in love with Yang Guifei. That was when the Tang Dynasty's troubles started to materialize.

Kaiyuan was better than Qianlong era because Tang Ming Huang was diligent during that period. He attended to state affairs responsibly and appointed competent officials into government. Kaiyuan also saw the flourishing of the arts.

I think if Tang Ming Huang retired a lot sooner, rather than remain emperor in his old age during Tianbao, An Lushan's rebellion might not have happened. He was getting senile and also got struck by Cupid's arrow.

Qianlong was actually responsible for helping to cause Qing's eventual decline. He was a big spender like his grandfather Kangxi, and granted a lot of favors to the corrupt He Shen. Qianlong also shunned outside influences from the Western world by maintaining a closed-door policy. This shut off China from the outside world and prevented access to technologies and new ideas at a time when Europe was rapidly advancing.