[wuTao]

Was the Sima family that founded the Jin dynasty from the same Sima family as Sima Qian? I read somewhere that it is, but i'm not sure of the source was correct.

Also, are there still Chinese people today who have the surname Sima? I heard it is an extinct surname...

[DaMo]

wuTao, on Jul 7 2004, 06:11 PM, said:

Was the Sima family that founded the Jin dynasty from the same Sima family as Sima Qian? I read somewhere that it is, but i'm not sure of the source was correct.

Also, are there still Chinese people today who have the surname Sima? I heard it is an extinct surname...

Sima Yan, the founder of the Jin dynasty, was the grandson of Sima Yi, advisor to the Wei kingdom and strategic nemesis of Zhuge Liang. And Sima Yi was a descendant of ... yes, Sima Qian, the master historian.

Sima Qian


Sima Yi


Sima Yan

[Tyler]

The Sima Clan served Wei for 4 generations before they turned it into Jin.

[Ghost_of_Han]

How did the Jin Dynasty end? and when did it end?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Really?. The Sima clan that founded the Jin dynasty was of connection with Sima Qian, the famous chinese historian during Western Han dynasty...? I'll need to verify on that. I think, Yun probably can tell us more about it when he's back tomorrow.

[snowybeagle]

I guess Sima Qian was probably a mature adult when he was castrated in 99BC, and considering the traditional Han culture at that time, he was probably married at a younger age and had children already.

Hence, it was possible that Sima Yi was a descendant of his - a fitting redress for the Grand Historian.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quote

I guess Sima Qian was probably a mature adult when he was castrated in 99BC, and considering the traditional Han culture at that time, he was probably married at a younger age and had children already.

Sima Qian was castrated by Han Wudi (the Western- Han Emperor) for 'trying to defend General Li Ling' , who was captured by the XiongNu during his campaign against XiongNu. According to Han Wudi, General Li Ling should 'die' during the war and should not have stayed with the Xiongnu, which was seen as betraying the han dynasty. It was said that the Xiongnu's princess even fell in love and wanted to marry General Li Ling.

But Sima Qian pointed out that General Li Ling was not to be blamed. He was under siege. Han Wudi was influriated by such opposition and had Sima Qian castrated.

[Yun]

Quote

How did the Jin Dynasty end? and when did it end?

I wrote about this in a previous thread about the Age of Fragmentation: http://www.chinahist...hp?showtopic=74

Anyway, to make it short - the Jin dynasty was first weakened by a civil war among its own imperial princes, and then driven south of the Huai River by rebelling Xiongnu. It survived with a new capital at Nanjing for another 100 years or so (from 317 to 420), and this period of its history is known as the Eastern Jin. In 420, the Eastern Jin general Liu Yu used his dominance of the imperial court to depose the Jin emperor and install himself with a new dynasty - the Song (known to historians as the Liu-Song). He then had the last Jin emperor murdered.

[Yun]

I've just checked my sources, and while Sima Qian and the Sima of the Jin dynasty both claimed descent from the same semi-legendary ancestor, they were not directly related. The Sima surname is said to have been conferred on Xiufu, the Earl of Cheng (程伯修父 or 程伯修甫), by the Western Zhou king Xuan for services rendered in battle. Thereafter, according to Sima Qian, the leaders of the Sima clan were employed as hereditary official historians for the Zhou kings. Later, during a civil war in the Eastern Zhou, a branch of the Sima clan moved first to Jin (Shanxi) and then to Qin (near Xi'an), settling down in the Longmen mountains on the banks of the Yellow River. This was Sima Qian's branch of the family. The other branch apparently stayed in the Luoyang area (where the Eastern Zhou capital was), and eventually produced Sima Yi in the Three Kingdoms period.

The irony is this: two of Sima Qian's ancestors were famous Qin generals in the Warring States, and one of them served under Bai Qi in the battle of Changping in which 400,000 surrendered Zhao soldiers were slaughtered. Under Qin Shihuang, another of Sima Qian's ancestors served as an official in charge of iron production. On the Luoyang side of the clan, however, Sima Ang 司马卬 was one of the military leaders of the rebellions that toppled the Qin, serving the revived kingdom of Zhao under Zhao Xie 赵歇. Xiang Yu gave him a fief as the King of Yin 殷王, with a piece of land in Henei (in present-day Henan province, just north of the Yellow River). Although the fief was withdrawn under the Han, Henei became a prefecture and the Sima continued to live there for eleven generations until the birth of Sima Yi as part of the twelth generation of Henei Sima.

Other branches of the Sima also spread into many other parts of China - Sima Xiangru, a famous poet of the Western Han, was from Chengdu in Sichuan.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Thanks for checking up the source, Yun.. good to know Sima Qian and the Sima clan of the 3 kingdoms period are not directly related.

[yimanrongdi]

For more information of House of Sima go to:
http://pub16.bravene...rnum=1312371940

ps: it should be 司马仰 (Sima Yang)

btw, could anyone help to translate these isolated sources below into english:


李宗，楚国苦县人，字尊祖，魏国木大夫。
李同，赵国大将军。
李兑，赵国丞相。
李跻，赵国阳安君。
李恪，字道弘，秦国太子太傅。
李兴族，字育神，一名汪，秦国将军。
李昙，字贵远，赵国柏人县侯，入秦国为御史大夫。
李崇，字伯，陇西郡太守、南郑公。（注：陇西李氏房系始于此）
李平瑶，字内德，南郡太守、狄道侯。
李信，字有成，大将军、陇西侯。
李超，一名伉，字仁高，汉大将军、渔阳郡太守。
李仲翔，河东郡太守、征西将军。
李伯考，陇西、河东二郡太守。
李尚，成纪县令。
李广，前将军。
李敢，字幼卿，郎中令、关内侯。
李禹，字子通。
李丞公，字丞公，河南郡太守。
李先，字敬宗，蜀、北平二郡太守。
李长宗，字伯礼，渔阳郡丞。
李君况，字叔，一字子期，博士、议郎、太中大夫。
李本，字上明，郎中、侍御史。
李次公，字仲君，巴郡太守、西夷校尉。
李轨，字文逸，三国魏临淮郡太守、司农卿。
李隆，字彦绪，长安令、积弩将军。
李艾，字世绩，西晋骁骑将军、魏郡太守。
李雍，字俊熙，济北、东莞二郡太守。
李弇，字季子，前凉张骏天水郡太守、武卫将军、安西亭侯。
李昶，字仲坚，前凉太子侍讲。
李暠，字玄盛，西凉武昭王、兴圣皇帝。
李歆，字士业，西凉後主。
李重耳，字景顺，以国亡奔宋，为汝南郡太守。北魏克豫州，以地归之，拜恒农郡太守，复为宋将薛安都所陷，北魏安南将军、豫州刺史。
李熙，字孟良，北魏金门镇将。（唐献祖）
李天赐，字德真。（唐懿祖）
李虎，字文彬，北周柱国大将军、唐国襄公。（唐太祖）
李昺，北周安州总管、柱国大将军、唐国仁公。（唐代祖）
李渊，生于长安，唐高祖。
All this above, thank you.

《新唐书·宗室世系》
李氏出自嬴姓。帝颛顼高阳氏生大业，大业生女华，女华生皋陶，字庭坚，为尧大理。生益，益生恩成，历虞、夏、商，世为大理，以官命族为理氏。至纣之时，理徵字德灵，为翼隶中吴伯，以直道不容於纣，得罪而死。其妻陈国契和氏与子利贞逃难於伊侯之墟，食木子得全，遂改理为李氏。利贞亦娶契和氏女，生昌祖，为陈大夫，家苦县。生彤德，彤德曾孙硕宗，周康王赐邑於苦县。五世孙乾，字元果，为周上御史大夫，娶益寿氏女婴敷，生耳，字伯阳，一字聃，周平王时为太史。

其後有李宗，字尊祖，魏封於段，为木大夫。生同，为赵大将军。生兑，为赵相。生跻，赵阳安君。二子：曰云，曰恪。恪生洪，字道弘，秦太子太傅。生兴族，字育神，一名汪，秦将军。生昙，字贵远，赵柏人侯，入秦为御史大夫，葬柏人西。生四子：崇、辨、昭、玑。崇为陇西房，玑为赵郡房。崇字伯，陇西守、南郑公。生二子：长曰平燕；次曰瑶，字内德，南郡守、狄道侯。生信，字有成，大将军、陇西侯。生超，一名伉，字仁高，汉大将军、渔阳太守。生二子：长曰元旷，侍中；次曰仲翔，河东太守、征西将军，讨叛羌素昌，战没，赠太尉，葬陇西狄道东川，因家焉。生伯考，陇西、河东二郡太守。生尚，成纪令，因居成纪。弟向，范阳房始祖也。尚生广，前将军。二子：长曰当户，生陵，字少卿，骑都尉；次曰敢，字幼卿，郎中令、关内侯。生禹，字子通。弟忠，顿丘房始祖也。禹生丞公，字丞公，河南太守。生先，字敬宗，蜀郡、北平太守。生长宗，字伯礼，渔阳丞。生君况，字叔，一字子期，博士、议郎、太中大夫。生本，字上明，郎中、侍御史。生次公，字仲君，巴郡太守、西夷校尉。弟恬，渤海房始祖也。次公生轨，字文逸，魏临淮太守、司农卿。弟潜，申公房始祖也。轨生隆，字彦绪，长安令、积弩将军。生艾，字世绩，晋骁骑将军、魏郡太守。生雍，字俊熙，济北、东莞二郡太守。生二子：长曰伦，丹杨房始祖也；次曰柔，字德远，北地太守。雍孙盖，安邑房始祖也。柔生弇，字季子，前凉张骏天水太守、武卫将军、安西亭侯。生昶，字仲坚，凉太子侍讲。生暠，字玄盛，西凉武昭王、兴圣皇帝。十子：谭、歆、让、愔、恂、翻、豫、宏、眺、亮。，镇远将军房始祖也。其曾孙系，平凉房始祖也。翻孙三人：曰丞，姑臧房始祖也；曰茂，炖煌房始祖也；曰冲，仆射房始祖也。曾孙曰成礼，绛郡房始祖也。豫玄孙曰刚，武陵房始祖也。歆字士业，西凉後主。八子：勗、绍、重耳、弘之、崇明、崇产、崇庸、崇祐。重耳字景顺，以国亡奔宋，为汝南太守。後魏克豫州，以地归之，拜恒农太守，复为宋将薛安都所陷，後魏安南将军、豫州刺史。生献祖宣皇帝熙，字孟良，後魏金门镇将。生懿祖光皇帝，讳天赐，字德真。三子：长曰起头，长安侯，生达摩，後周羽林监、太子洗马、长安县伯，其後无闻；次曰太祖；次乞豆。太祖景皇帝虎，字文彬，後周柱国大将军、唐国襄公。八子，长曰延伯，生於山东。其後太祖入关，延伯仕北齐为散骑常侍。武德四年，追封南阳伯，附属籍，贞观初，罢之，与姑臧、绛郡、武阳公三房，号「四公子」房，至开元二十三年，复附属籍。代祖元皇帝讳昺，周安州总管、柱国大将军、唐国仁公。四子：长曰高祖，次曰梁王澄，次曰蜀王湛，次曰汉王洪。


《史记·李广》
李将军广者，陇西成纪人也。其先曰李信，秦时为将，逐得燕太子丹者也。故槐里，徙成纪。广家世世受射。孝文帝十四年，匈奴大入萧关，而广以良家子从军击胡。用善骑射，杀首虏多，为汉中郎。广从弟李蔡亦为郎，皆为武骑常侍，秩八百石。尝从行，有所冲陷折关及格猛兽，而文帝曰：“惜乎，子不遇时！如令子当高帝时，万户侯岂足道哉！”

广子三人，曰当户、椒、敢，为郎。天子与韩嫣戏，嫣少不逊，当户击嫣，嫣走。于是天子以为勇。当户早死，拜椒为代郡太守，皆先广死。当户有遗腹子名陵。广死军时，敢从骠骑将军。广死明年，李蔡以丞相坐侵孝景园［土需］地，当下吏治，蔡亦自杀，不对狱，国除。李敢以校尉从骠骑将军击左贤王，力战，夺左贤王鼓旗，斩首多，赐爵关内侯，食邑二百户，代广为郎中令。顷之，怨大将军青之恨其父，乃击伤大将军，大将军匿讳之。居无何，敢从上雍，至甘泉宫猎。骠骑将军去病与青有亲，射杀敢。去病时方贵幸，上讳云鹿触杀之。居岁余，去病死，而敢有女为太子中人，爱幸。敢男禹有宠于于太子，然好利，李氏陵迟衰微矣。

[Yun]

Yimanrongdi, that's a very useful page you have! My version of the Jin Shu, which is the authoritative Zhonghua Shuju 中华书局 one in traditional Fanti characters, has the name as 司马卬, so I suspect that 司马仰 is from a Jianti version that changed the character for typesetting reasons. Note that in my Chinese word processing software, the word 卬 is only available when I set it to Fanti, because it's very rare.

I'll start on translating your passages over the next few days. But I expect it to take quite some time, and I might make some mistakes with regard to the Classical Chinese, so I would appreciate any corrections from you guys.

[wuTao]

Wow, thanks for the info guys! Very interesting to know that Sima Qian and Sima Yi are from the same Sima clan, only different branches.

Does anyone know the answer to my second question? Does the Sima surname still exist, or is it extinct?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quote

Does anyone know the answer to my second question? Does the Sima surname still exist, or is it extinct?

It still exists..I've got a chinese friend who's surname is Sima. He's called Sima Lang (司马浪)

You might want to check up the famous chinese historian Sima Guang (司马光) during the Song dynasty, who wrote the history classics "history as a mirror" or "Zhi Zhi Tong Jian" (治志通鉴). This used to be a must-read for emperors of later dynasty.

I wonder if Sima Guang is of any relations to the Sima clan of the Jin dynasty.

[Tyler]

That would be cool if they were. There are also some sayings that Sima Yi was not from a great ancestry at all and he was adopted. I do not beleave this but can someone check to see who his father was.