[MengTzu]

Are the terms "上帝" and "天" synonymous in traditional Chinese (Confucian) religious thought?

[jwrevak]

MengTzu, on Apr 18 2005, 02:30 PM, said:

Are the terms "上帝" and "天" synonymous in traditional Chinese (Confucian) religious thought?

It depends. I don't think there's an easy answer.

I think it depends on the period, document, and just what you mean by "synonymous", "traditional", and "Confucian".

I'm no expert but here are my impressions. 上帝 (Lord-on-High) is more of a "supreme ruler" or "lord", a little bit like the Judeo-Christian God (without being the same). 天 (Heaven) is more of an "impersonal god" or "moral force". So usually I think there's some difference but, depending on the period, it may not be much.

For example, during the early Zhou the two terms were sometimes used interchangeably and were synonymous or nearly synonymous. By the days of Confucius, however, I don't think 上帝 was much used. (Does Confucius even use the term 上帝 in the Analects?) Instead, by this period 天 became the preferred term. I suspect that Confucius would have thought the terms roughly synonymous. Anyone think he would have viewed 上帝 and 天 as significantly different in meaning?

Later, of course, it became common to separate 上 from 帝 and use the latter in titles for emperors, e.g., 始皇帝.

[Yun]

A relevant thread from the past: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1564

[jwrevak]

MengTzu, on Apr 18 2005, 02:30 PM, said:

Are the terms "上帝" and "天" synonymous in traditional Chinese (Confucian) religious thought?

I found a little more on this issue.

From the philosopher Ch'eng I (in Reflections on Things at Hand 近思錄):

Ch'ien <i.e., the first hexagram of the I Ching> means heaven. Heaven is the physical body of ch'ien, whereas ch'ien is the nature and feelings of Heaven [Nature]. Chi'en means strength. What is strong and is unceasing in its activity is called ch'ien.

Spoken of as one, Heaven is the Way [Tao]. This is the meaning in the saying <from the I Ching>, "Heaven will not be in opposition." Spoken of in its different aspects, it is called heaven with respect to its physical body, the Lord with respect to its being the master, negative and positive spiritual forces with respect to its operation, spirit with respect to its wonderful functioning, and chi'ien with respect to its nature and feelings.

Wing-Tsit Chan is the translator of the above passage. Material in editorial brackets like this [xxx] are his insertions. Material in angle brackets like this <xxx> are my insertions.

The original Chinese:

乾，天也。天者，乾之形體；乾者，天之性情。乾，健也，健而無息之謂乾。

夫天，專言之則道也，"天且弗違"是也。分而言之，則以形體謂之天，以主宰謂之帝，以功用謂之鬼神，以妙用謂之神，以性情謂之乾。

Getting at the heart of this passage is difficult for me. I think Ch’eng I is saying, in part, that philosophers commonly used different terms to describe the Ground of Being (to use a Western term). When philosophers spoke of it as an all-embracing unity or the ultimate origin of the universe, they called it Heaven (capital H) or the Way; when they referenced its physical manifestation, they called it heaven (small h), and when they referenced its sovereign or anthropomorphic qualities (a bit like a monotheistic God), they called it Lord 帝. Finally, I personally observe that the expression Lord is similar to Lord-on-High 上帝.

So maybe, for some Confucianists the following is approximately true.

Heaven 天 = the Way 道 = the Lord 帝 = the Lord-on-High 上帝.

What do you think?

[MengTzu]

jwrevak, on Apr 22 2005, 03:58 AM, said:

Getting at the heart of this passage is difficult for me.  I think Ch’eng I is saying, in part, that philosophers commonly used different terms to describe the Ground of Being (to use a Western term).

There's a Chinese term for this, it's "li" 理, I don't understand why we need to use a Western word here. 理 accurately captures Ch'eng's ideas.

Quote

When philosophers spoke of it as an all-embracing unity or the ultimate origin of the universe, they called it Heaven (capital H) or the Way; when they referenced its physical manifestation, they called it heaven (small h), and when they referenced its sovereign or anthropomorphic qualities (a bit like a monotheistic God), they called it Lord 帝.  Finally, I personally observe that the expression Lord is similar to Lord-on-High 上帝.

I still can't get over the fact that Heaven and Earth are counterparts. Unless you can find me a source saying that Heaven CREATED Earth, it is difficult to see that the philosophers really thought Heaven was the origin of universe. (The Lixue -- Neo-Confucian -- scholars seem to equate Heaven with Li, but again, this is confusing (as Earth is unaccounted for,) thought it might make sense if they mean "Heaven" in a broader sense (Heaven as in nature in general) or they were referring to the Will of Heaven.

Quote

So maybe, for some Confucianists the following is approximately true.

Heaven 天 = the Way 道 = the Lord 帝 = the Lord-on-High 上帝.

What do you think?

It seems that Heaven is equal to Shang di. It's still hard to see Heaven as the origin of all things, as noted above.

[jwrevak]

MengTzu, on Apr 21 2005, 11:01 PM, said:

I still can't get over the fact that Heaven and Earth are counterparts.

You may well be correct. It appears that philosophers typically regarded Heaven primarily as a product rather than the producer when discussing the origins of the cosmos.

Quote

Unless you can find me a source saying that Heaven CREATED Earth, it is difficult to see that the philosophers really thought Heaven was the origin of universe.

This will probably not completely satisfy you but interestingly the Book of Poetry says:

"Heaven gave birth to the multitudinous people. . . ."

If this is taken at face value, one must conclude that Heaven created human beings. See also Schwartz, The world of thought in ancient China.

On a related note, concerning the approximate equivalence of the Lord-on-High (Shang-ti) and Heaven (T'ien) I have found the following.

"For my purposes here what is of most importance is the enormous eagerness of the dynastic founders to conflate T'ien, who is clearly associated with the physical heavens, with Shang-ti. The message is clear. We, the Chou people, worship the same high god as our predecessors and the high god Shang-ti-T'ien has made it abundandtly clear that he is in no way bound to any royal lineage." Schwartz, The world of thought in ancient China.

"The Chou identified their supreme authority T'ien ('Heaven'), a sky-god hardly distinguished from the sky itself, with Ti, the high god of the Shang. . . ." A.C. Graham, Disputers of the tao: philosphical argument in ancient China.

[MengTzu]

jwrevak, on Apr 23 2005, 09:18 PM, said:

You may well be correct.  It appears that philosophers typically regarded Heaven primarily as a product rather than the producer when discussing the origins of the cosmos.

This will probably not completely satisfy you but interestingly the Book of Poetry says:

"Heaven gave birth to the multitudinous people. . . ."

If this is taken at face value, one must conclude that Heaven created human beings.  See also Schwartz, The world of thought in ancient China.

On a related note, concerning the approximate equivalence of the Lord-on-High (Shang-ti) and Heaven (T'ien) I have found the following.

"For my purposes here what is of most importance is the enormous eagerness of the dynastic founders to conflate T'ien, who is clearly associated with the physical heavens, with Shang-ti.  The message is clear.  We, the Chou people, worship the same high god as our predecessors and the high god Shang-ti-T'ien has made it abundandtly clear that he is in no way bound to any royal lineage."  Schwartz, The world of thought in ancient China.

"The Chou identified their supreme authority T'ien ('Heaven'), a sky-god hardly distinguished from the sky itself, with Ti, the high god of the Shang. . . ."  A.C. Graham, Disputers of the tao: philosphical argument in ancient China.

Thanks for those quotes, they are helpful. I think it might be best that we try not to compare God with Tian, nor perhaps even God with Li or Tai Chi. Nor is it a good idea, in my opinion, to insist that the ancient Chinese were Monotheistic. The fact that Heaven created humans isn't enough to show that Heaven is God -- in Yi Ching, the power of Heaven (Chien) beings all things, while the power of Earth (Kun) completes all things. So Heaven and Earth created humanity and all lives together, while the two forces of Heaven and Earth -- Yang and Yin, respectively, originate (through differentiation) from Tai Chi. Can Tai Chi be God, then? Perhaps, but it's not clear what Tai Chi means to the Chinese. As far as I know the Chinese didn't worship Tai Chi. A Jesuit missionary commented that Tai Chi should be considered the material cause for all things, and it'd be odd to say that God is the material cause (namely, the "stuff" that all things are made out of.) And this Jesuit's interpretation is actually not off base, because the Han classicists in fact emphacized the idea that all things came from one Qi (air.) Even if we consider Tai Chi as Li, like Zhu Xi did, Tai Chi can probably be the Perfect Good of Plato (which then can be considered Divine,) but it's not entirely clear if we can equate Li with Perfect Good, as all things have the same Li, and it's not clear that all things have the Perfect Good. May be it's best to stop trying to understand Eastern metaphysics in terms of Western metaphysics?

[jwrevak]

MengTzu, on Apr 18 2005, 02:30 PM, said:

Are the terms "上帝" and "天" synonymous in traditional Chinese (Confucian) religious thought?

I found two very interesting essays relevent to this discussion. They explore the evolving notion of the Divine in early Chinese history, with frequent references to 上帝 and 天.

Dealing with Divinity: Definitions of the 'spiritual' in early Confucian thought

The death of God in early Chinese thought

[somechineseperson]

According to the early Daoist, 上帝 is also sometimes referred to as 上帝太一神. Perhaps we can also identify Shangdi with Taiji, as the "Unformed Origin of all forms". (Note I am not trying to use western metaphysics to dissect Chinese metaphysics, but linking two aspects of Chinese metaphysics together）

[somechineseperson]

By saying "Chinese did not worship Taiji" you mean Chinese people did not literally pray to Taiji in anyway. But this is hardly surprising as Taiji is transpersonal and immanent, not a transcedental personal deity. The best way to worship Taiji might be to live one's life according to Li, rather than to explicitly pray to It.

But if one can identify Taiji with Shangdi, then Taiji can also have a personal aspect, because Shangdi, or Huangtian Shangdi, 皇天上帝, is a personal deity one can pray to. For example, in the Temple of Heaven in Beijing, there is a spirit tablet addressed to the Lord Most High. (皇天上帝之位） In ancient China you only have spirit tablets for personal deities.

There is also a saying from Shi Jing (Book of Songs) which I personally like, it occurs repeatedly throughout the text:

無貳無虞、上帝臨汝。

"Have no doubts or anxieties, for Shangdi is with you."

[somechineseperson]

IMHO Heaven and Earth represents the Yang and Yin aspects of the Creative Force respectively and are hence partners in Creation. Shangdi is not just the God of Heaven IMHO, but also the God of Earth, for Confucius said in the Doctrine of the Mean (Zhong Yong):

郊社之礼，所以祭上帝也。

"The Countryside and Temple Sacrificial Rites are conducted to worship Shangdi."

郊礼 is done to worship Heaven, while 社礼 is done to worship Earth. But Confucius said that both are conducted for Shangdi. Shangdi can be considered the God of Heaven AND Earth. Earth (which today we might call Mother Nature) is the Ying or feminine side of Shangdi that is not usually emphasised in a patriachial culture like ancient China. (Heaven, the Yang aspect of the Creative Force, is obviously emphasised more).

Another interesting point is that Laozi in the Daode Jing considers the Dao to be the Mother of the universe. Relatively speaking, Confucianism is Yang and Daoism is Ying, they emphasis complementary aspects of the Creative Force.

[somechineseperson]

MengTzu, on Apr 23 2005, 11:47 PM, said:

Thanks for those quotes, they are helpful.  I think it might be best that we try not to compare God with Tian, nor perhaps even God with Li or Tai Chi.  Nor is it a good idea, in my opinion, to insist that the ancient Chinese were Monotheistic.  The fact that Heaven created humans isn't enough to show that Heaven is God -- in Yi Ching, the power of Heaven (Chien) beings all things, while the power of Earth (Kun) completes all things.  So Heaven and Earth created humanity and all lives together, while the two forces of Heaven and Earth -- Yang and Yin, respectively, originate (through differentiation) from Tai Chi.  Can Tai Chi be God, then?  Perhaps, but it's not clear what Tai Chi means to the Chinese.  As far as I know the Chinese didn't worship Tai Chi.  A Jesuit missionary commented that Tai Chi should be considered the material cause for all things, and it'd be odd to say that God is the material cause (namely, the "stuff" that all things are made out of.)  And this Jesuit's interpretation is actually not off base, because the Han classicists in fact emphacized the idea that all things came from one Qi (air.)  Even if we consider Tai Chi as Li, like Zhu Xi did, Tai Chi can probably be the Perfect Good of Plato (which then can be considered Divine,) but it's not entirely clear if we can equate Li with Perfect Good, as all things have the same Li, and it's not clear that all things have the Perfect Good.  May be it's best to stop trying to understand Eastern metaphysics in terms of Western metaphysics?

Not all things have the Perfect Good, but IMHO if one follows the Mencian school of Confucianism, as opposed to Xunzi's school, one could say that all things are Good, including human beings, in their ultimate nature. According to Mencian meta-ethics, Evil is not as fundamental as Good is. The nature of things is to follow the Good like it is in water's nature to flow downhill. Yet with water it is possible to make it move uphill, but this does not mean it is in its ultimate nature to move uphill. Perhaps it is the same with all things, they can become Evil, but Evil is never their ultimate nature.

[MengTzu]

somechineseperson, on Jun 6 2005, 08:42 PM, said:

By saying "Chinese did not worship Taiji" you mean Chinese people did not  literally pray to Taiji in anyway. But this is hardly surprising as Taiji is transpersonal and immanent, not a transcedental personal deity. The best way to worship Taiji might be to live one's life according to Li, rather than to explicitly pray to It.

But if one can identify Taiji with Shangdi, then Taiji can also have a personal aspect, because Shangdi, or Huangtian Shangdi, 皇天上帝, is a personal deity one can pray to. For example, in the Temple of Heaven in Beijing, there is a spirit tablet addressed to the Lord Most High. (皇天上帝之位） In ancient China you only have spirit tablets for personal deities.

There is also a saying from Shi Jing (Book of Songs) which I personally like, it occurs repeatedly throughout the text:

無貳無虞、上帝臨汝。

"Have no doubts or anxieties, for Shangdi is with you."

Should Shangdi be identified with Taiji or Tian? Historically, was Shangdi identified with Tian, such as Huang Tian Shangdi?

[MengTzu]

I know I've asked this before, but I cannot find the thread. Is there any source saying that Shangdi might originally be the ancestor of Shang?

[Bao Pu]

There is no ancient source which states this. Di in the oracle bones refers to some sort of being(s), a sacrifice, and also perhaps a Nature spirit. Robert Eno does the most in depth study of Di in the oracle bones in Early China 15. He finds it to be more of a generic term, but the evidence for ANY conclusions is very, very limited.