[snowybeagle]

I have a question which I'd like to hear from some of you.

Had King Zheng of Qin not been hoodwinked and genuinely offered a position, would Han Fei have accepted and serve earnestly?

Background (long):
Usually considered as one of the most brilliant minds of the era, Han Fei was a scion of the ruling dynasty of the State of Han, which was probably the weakest and most vulnerable of the Seven Mighty States of the Warring States Era.

Han Fei was a proponent of the Legalism, a school of thought which advocated stringent controls with comprehensive rules, enforced by severe punishments with some reward system as encouragements, ruling by law without consideration to personal station in life.

Legalism was adopted by the State of Qin, and it was instrumental in making Qin the most powerful state at that time.

King Zheng of Qin, later to be the First Emperor of China, favoured Legalism. When Hai Fei's treatise somehow made it way to his reading, King Zheng was most impressed and wanted to meet the author. As it so happened, Li Si, one of the closest advisor and also a Legalist, was a fellow student with Han Fei and made the necessary introduction. In BC234, Han Fei went to the Court of King Zheng.

King Zheng was very taken with Han Fei and had wanted to appoint Han Fei to a major position in his court. In those days, it was common for people from one state to serve in another, even in the capacity of a general leading an invasion of one's own native land. At various times, certain rulers were persuaded to only employ natives in the courts but those who refused discriminate on citizenship found themselves benefitting, and hence the practice remained widespread.

Nevertheless, foreign origins remained an issue from time to time. It had been used as a premise of distrust towards several prominent figures in various states. This is usually done out of jealousy, as in the case for Han Fei.

Aware that Qin had a tradition of accepting foreign talents, Li Si had to use Han Fei's being a member of Han's ruling dynasty to dissuade King Zheng from employing Han Fei and imprisoned him instead. Realising the ploy would only worked temporarily, Li Si bribed the guards to poison Han Fei who had not been given a chance to defend himself. Sure enough, shortly afterwards, King Zheng wanted to release Han Fei only to be told Han Fei had committed suicide out of guilt.

[Yun]

Perhaps only if Ying Zheng could be persuaded to form a military alliance with the state of Han against the other five states. Han Fei was underappreciated by his own ruling house, but he was not a mercenary like Li Si, and he was at the Qin court primarily as a representative for the interests of his native state.

[snowybeagle]

I have some doubts about what Yun had said.

While Han Fei was probably a better person that Li Si (who ended up betraying the trust of Emperor Qin), I thought he was realisitic enough to know that each state of would its own interest ahead the others. Unless he was woefully uninformed, Han Fei would also have known that the powerful Qin had little to gain from alliance with Han, which was not only the weakest state, but also conveniently adjacent to the Qin which had clear expanionist drive.

Nonetheless, Han Fei still went to the court of Qin. In contrast, when Lord Meng Chang of Qi went to Qin some four score years before, Qin was not as powerful and had not made clear its ultimate ambition or ability to swallow all the rival states. Qin had initially offered a senior minister position to Lord Meng Chang but withdrew the offer after Lord Meng Chang arrived in consideration of Lord Meng Chang's ties to the ruling dynasty in Qi (is there a pattern here?), and was hesistant to allow Lord Meng Chang to leave because Lord Meng Chang (and his entourage of talents) might have gained crucial intelligence during their stay in Qin.

What did Han Fei hoped to achieve by going to Qin if not to be appreciated for his talents and be suitably employed?

I tend to agree that Han Fei was probably a better person that Li Si. Had Han Fei been present instead of Li Si, Zhao Gao would probably not be able to usurp the throne for Hu Hai, and history might have been very different indeed.

[Yun]

I'd just like to add that Han Fei was rather uncharismatic in person, and this may have doomed both his career and his life. Unlike those great charmers and debaters like Su Qin and Zhang Yi, Han Fei had a bad stammer, and could only display his genius in writing. That is apparently why when he was unjustly imprisoned by the Qin, he was unable to talk his way out of the situation. If he had been even half as eloquent as Li Si, things might have ended differently for him.

[General_Zhaoyun]

In terms of political plot, Han Feizi was unable to outwit Li Si, who was jeolous of Han Feizi being a favorite advisor by King Yin Zheng. Li Si thus set up a plot to pull Han Feizi down and get rid of him, after seeing his own influence waning. He first told King Yin Zheng that Han Feizi was of the Han house and that arosed King Yin Zheng's suspicion. Subsequently, Han Feizi was imprisoned and committed suicide.

[thirdgumi]

I don't think Han Fei Zi had intension to serve Qin, he went to Qin to save his native state, the Han state. When he arrived Qin, he gave to the King Ying Zheng an article called "Cun Han" (存韩), meaning "Keep Han". By this act, King Ying Zheng knew Han Fei Zi's heart was in Han. The whole situation of Li Si be jelous just happed to be convinient.

[snowybeagle]

Is anyone able to share some contents from the treatise "Cun Han" (存韩)?

It'd be most interesting to see how a legalist would argue to preserve his home state when the school of legalism function on the premise that might is the ultimate authority and source of power.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Just a short historical background (which I've checked about my chinese source about Han Feizi 韩非子):

Basically, during King Yingzheng's time, Li Si drew up strategy and plans for Qin.
Fearing the extermination by Qin, the king of Han assigned Prince Han Fei as an envoy in the year 233 BC. Yingzheng had read Han Fei's great legalist philosophical works such as "Gu Fen" (孤愤), "Wu Du" (五蠹) etc and was filled with admiration for him. When Han Fei arrived in Qin, Yingzhen was exhilarated by his arrival and asked him to stay in Qin.

Li Si (李斯) and Han Fei were former pupils of Xunzi but Li Si was not so talented as Han Fei. Seeing that Yingzheng thought highly of Han Fei, Li Si was afraid that Han Fei might take over this position, so he schemed to harm him.

Yingzheng was suspicious by nature. Though he appreciated Han Fe's talents, he did not trust him completely. Li Si and Yao Jia (姚贾) ganged up and told the King of Qin: "Han Fei is a prince of Han. He can't serve Qin forever. When he returns to Han, he will cause trouble to Qin in future. To safeguard Qin's interest, it is better to find an excuse to had him killed".

Readily believing what the two said, Yingzheng put Han Fei into jail. Immediately, Li Si had some poison sent to Han Fei, asking him to kill himself. Han Fei wanted to tell the truth to the king but there was no communication line available to him. When Yingzheng thought of Han Fei's talents, he regretted. Hurriedly he assigned an officer to the prison to grant him a pardon, but the 'prisoner' had already died.

Hence it was Li Si who sent the poision and ask Han Fei to commit suicide.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I would just like to add some further backgrounds on Han Fei (280 - 233 BC), including his legalist thoughts and story (based on my chinese source):

He was one of the philosophers during the warring states period, being a representative of the legalism school (法家). He came from the state of Han, and together with Li Si, was a student of Xunzi (荀子), a great confucianism philosopher. Influenced by Xunzi, but backed with legalist background, he once proposed to King of Han about legalist political reform, but his proposals were not accepted. When king of Qin attacked Han, he was forced to go to Qin and Yingzheng greatly admired his work. However, he was schemed by the jeolous Li Si and was later thrown in prison and died.

Han Fei opposed the confucian teaching of Confucius and Mencius, calling them ancient practice. He viewed that one must base on new situation to initiate new policy. He combined the legalist principle of Shangyang (商鞅), Shen Buhai (申不害) and formulate a new principle based on law as the origin. It was a philosphical treatise based on Law (法), Method (术) and Power(势), used to consolidate a centralised power and bureuacratic system.

After inheriting Xunzi's "People of inherent evil nature" principle, he viewed that one must use the law to rid people of evil nature. His principle allowed new regimes with the aim of creating a unified centralised bureaucracy to look as a foundation. He viewed that population increase will decrease the standard of living, cause social upheaval.

His philosophical work includes:

"Gu Fen" (孤愤) [Lonely anger]
"Wu Du" (五蠹) [5 evils]
"Shuo Nan" (说难) [talking about difficulty]
"Yong Ren" (用人) [using people]
..

All of these were compiled into his great work "Han Feizi" (韩非子), which is easily available at any bookstore today.

[thirdgumi]

Quote

Is anyone able to share some contents from the treatise "Cun Han" (存韩)?

"Cun Han" (存韩) is in the book "Han Fei Zi", it's the 2nd chapter.
Here is a link: Cun Han (in Chinese)

[Jiang Qin]

Yup, I agree that Han Fei Zi's heart was forever with his state, Han. He was a political hostage in Qin. Ying Zheng has doubt him much because of Li Si and from then he dislike Han Fei Zi.

Literally he's better than Li Si but in politics, he way behing Li Si. Li Si has all it takes to be a great minister, later became the most influential man of his time. Han Fei Zi was a mere fella, too innocent to be compared to Li Si.

Then about the way Yin Zheng rule and his attitude. Although he favored Han Fei Zi's Legalism, the way he ruled was very different. Ying Zheng was a very dangerous person to serve as a minister. This can be seen when he started the "expelling scholars import" policy. Although the policy failed, this shows that he's quite "rushy" in making his decisions but once done, it would be very hard to make him turn his decision.

[MING-LOYALIST]

Li Si was not a native of QIN either(he was from CHU), he was the one who opposed the King Zheng of Qin's expelling policy.
so Li Si argueing that Han Fei won't serve Qin because he is the Prince of Han is really hippocrite.

[MengTzu]

Hey all,

A side note: according to Shiji, both Li Si and Han Fei were students of the famous Confucian (Rujia) scholar Hsun Tzu. Perhaps the rivalry started out when they were both students of Hsun Tzu.

Peace,

Michael

11-3-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hsun Tzu in pinyin is Xun Zi 荀子, a famous confucian philosopher

[Rom1]

Hello.

I am very by what i've heard on this topic.
I always thought that Han Fei Zi was a scholar exiled from Han who befriended Lu Buwei and became his councelor during his regence.
Does somebody else know this version ?