[snowybeagle]

I listed the Ming emperors from AD 1368 to AD 1644, and excluded emperors from the Southern Ming who "ruled" after the successful Jurchen invasion.

Please indicate who you think was the worst ruler.
I am not setting any criteria because each individual will have different ideas.
However, please note that this is to assess who you think was the worst as a ruler, not a person.

Hence, I am only requesting that your criteria be related to statesmanship, ruling capabilities/achievements, or in this case, mistakes, blunders and disasters etc.

Hence, I do not expect to grant any leniency on the basis of the person being an accomplished musician, poet, or patron of the arts (unless you can relate it to statesmanship and assessment as a ruler).

Personally, I held Zhū QíZhèn, more commonly referred to Emperor YīngZōng (英宗) in history, as the worst. He brought uncalled for disaster to the state in AD 1449, and caused further disturbances by staging a coup after his release by the Mongols and executing loyal official Yü Qian (于谦) who saved the empire for absolutely no good reason.

There were other bad emperors, but if I have to single one out as the worst, it would be him.

[Yun]

Zhu Qizhen was the first bad emperor, but there were worse ones later on. I voted for Zhu Yijun the Wanli emperor, because while he wasn't as outrageous as Zhu Houzhao (Zhengde), he reigned about three times longer and for much of that time was simply an absentee ruler who secluded himself from his ministers. Furthermore, Zhengde's excesses were partly undone by Zhu Houcong (Jiajing), just like Chenghua's mistakes were undone by Hongzhi, but Wanli's mess could not be fixed up by anyone who came after him and truly spelt the end for the dynasty.

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Apr 22 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

but Wanli's mess could not be fixed up by anyone who came after him and truly spelt the end for the dynasty.

For me, it was a close call between your choice and mine.

If I were to interprete your reasoning in another way, WanLi was worse than others because no one could clear his mess, but others were less bad because someone could clear their mess - which could imply had someone been able to clear WanLi's mess, he wouldn't have been considered so bad. But, that's not quite what you mean, right?

ShenZong (WanLi) was oft cited as the cause of the irredeemable decline of the Ming, and that might well be true.
Unlike YingZong who had a bad influence since young, ShenZong had Zhang JuZheng to guide him but squandered it all.

I chose YingZong in the end because of the reasons I mentioned, and, because after his experience as a war captive, he really should have known better. He held the dubious distinction of being the only Chinese emperor ever taken captive by "foreign" forces and returned to resume his throne (King Huai of Chu excluded since he was not an emperor).

To be fair, it was said that after his restoration, YingZong made some attempts to be diligent about the state affairs, employing officials such as Li Xian (李贤) and Peng Shi (彭时), while punishing petty men who plotted the coup, such as commander of the capital's garrison Marquis of Wu Qing - Shi Heng (武清侯石亨), the eunuch Cao JiXiang (曹吉祥) and vice-commander Xu YouZhen (徐有贞), the last being the main instigator to execute Yü Qian. Other innocent officials were also implicated. However, it was not clear whether he was making amends in these instances or it was due to the coup plotters falling out among themselves and becoming too arrogant.

In addition, his trusted eunuch, Men Da (门达), resumed the antagonism of the eunuchs towards the court officials, including the Li Xian. Despite the malignings being exposed, YingZong did not punish Men Da.

Some accounts mentioned YingZong regretted his coup later in life, but it was too late.

One of the drawbacks of Chinese imperium was that there was no way for ministers to decide an emperor was unsuitable to rule and persuade him to "retire", and select a more suitable candidate, as it existed in some other historical monarchies.

[highlander]

For me no emperor can be as bad as Wanli by neglecting court and government matters for 30 years, the entire Ming government was practically rotting and on a fast steady decline ever since, plus this probably gave the opportunity for the Nuzhen Jurchens to gain in power, notably Nurhachi, the rest we know is history....

Regarding Yingzong, some even argue the fact he was the original emperor in the first place and was simply claiming back his rightful throne, though Daizong was probably the better emperor. Coz we must remember that Yingzong was promulgated to the role of supreme regent (太上皇) against his own will when he was still in the captivity of the mongols, though the situation then called for drastic actions as Chinese dynasties then beleived that (国不可一日无君- meaning the country cannot do without a ruler for even one day).

Considering and comparing the damage and harm all the Ming Emperors have caused during their reign, i'd rank Shenzong as the worst Ming emperor, 2nd would be Yingzong, 3rd is Wuzong and the last would be Xizong, also know as the carpenter emperor-LOL.

[Yun]

Quote

One of the drawbacks of Chinese imperium was that there was no way for ministers to decide an emperor was unsuitable to rule and persuade him to "retire", and select a more suitable candidate, as it existed in some other historical monarchies.

There actually was - the process of abdication (shanrang). But this was usually a charade in which a powerful minister got the other ministers to force a weak emperor to hand the throne over to him.

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Apr 26 2005, 11:26 PM, said:

There actually was - the process of abdication (shanrang). But this was usually a charade in which a powerful minister got the other ministers to force a weak emperor to hand the throne over to him.

ShanRang was a veiled coup or usurping, as the new emperor was usually from another clan and formed a different dynasty.

Before that, they might depose an emperor, or fei (废) to replace an emperor with another puppet.

[Yun]

Actually the one masterminding the deposition (fei) of an emperor could as likely be a rival member of the imperial house, or ministers supporting him. In the case of Liu Yifu, the second emperor of the Liu-Song, he was overthrown by two powerful ministers because he proved totally unfit to rule. But his younger brother Liu Yilong, who was chosen to replace him, perceived that these ministers intended to control the court, and later had them eliminated.

[Koolasuchus]

I consider Yinzhong to be the wrost emperor of Ming, he overthrown his more capable brother and really set the precedence for the other emperors to follow.

Yun, on Apr 26 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

Actually the one masterminding the deposition (fei) of an emperor could as likely be a rival member of the imperial house, or ministers supporting him. In the case of Liu Yifu, the second emperor of the Liu-Song, he was overthrown by two powerful ministers because he proved totally unfit to rule. But his younger brother Liu Yilong, who was chosen to replace him, perceived that these ministers intended to control the court, and later had them eliminated.

Liu Song has many deposed emperors for such a short time in power, it and the southern dynasties that followed are a good place to look for palace intrigues, conspiracies, plots and counter plots, and all that juicy stuff, making North-South Dynasties one of my favorite era.

[Moping4U]

Which emperor broke into citizens' homes and abduct their wives into his harem and for ransom?

[highlander]

Moping4U, on May 3 2005, 07:10 AM, said:

Which emperor broke into citizens' homes and abduct their wives into his harem and for ransom?

Wuzong

[Yun]

Wuzong = the Zhengde emperor

He was also infamous for visiting prostitutes.

[Moping4U]

wow, after looking up on the Zhengde emperor, he's really f*****-up. Built his own little town, to play around with. Placed trust on the eunuch Liu Jin, who set up the infamous Internal Chamber. Completely neglected the court. He basically halted the Great Wall construction by spending funds on his "Panther Room" and dismissing and persecuting generals and officials on border defese. Kidnapped women from all walks of life, and violated them for all his pleasure. When a royal uncle rebelled against him, but was defeated, he had fun playing capture with the poor uncle. This guy done nothing good and everything bad. Piece of Sh!t.

[Yun]

Haha, but in popular culture (e.g. operas) he became famous as a playboy who would go in disguise among the people and have affairs with girls. A roving cassanova, better than a kidnapper and rapist eh?

I just read that Ming Yingzong was largely responsible for the relegation of the Ming navy to a coastal force through the dismantlement of the treasure ships, even before the Tumu disaster shifted priorities to the northern steppe. His first reign starts in 1435, two years after Zheng He's last voyage, so it would seem to correspond. By 1474, ten years after the end of his second reign, only 140 of the 400 ocean-going warships in the original fleet remained.

[snowybeagle]

After reading about the rebellion of 2 imperial princes during the reign of ZhengDe, I wonder if I should switch my vote to him. I'll try to understand the mistakes during WanLi first though ...

This post has been edited by snowybeagle: 20 October 2005 - 06:00 AM

[Emperor_HonG]

anyone here have any links on detail biography and information on ming emperors..

Althought i agree that wanli caused the decline of ming into desturction, i voted zhengde as number 1 worst ruler of ming..