560 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

I thought we should devote a discussion on the "Hundred Yue" people, which is also called the "Bai Yue" 百越 ,since our vietnamese members such as Like2learn, Zhou Taiyu, Ahman is quite interested in Vietnamese ancestry which somehow is related to the Yue people.

Chinese historians during Qin/Han period have collectively called the nomadic people of the north as "Hu 胡" people (such as XiongNu, Qiang, Jie, Xianbei, Wuhuan etc.), while the 'uncivilized' people of the south as "Yue" people. During Han Wudi's period, he led a conquest of what's today Guangdong and Fujian province, and northern Vietnam, where a large population of "Yue" people dwelled. This occurred roughly around 130 BC (uhmm.. not sure the exact date). Because there were many groups within the "Yue" people, there were also called "Bai Yue" 百越, which means "hundred Yue"

I've already posted an article at

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2252


History of Yue People

Basically, during the spring/autumn and warring states period times, the people that dwelled in the southern region of what's called "Zhejiang", "Fujian", "Guangdong" provinces today and northern part of "Vietnam" are called "Yue" people. The Yue people are quite diverse and have many clans and tribal federation. The Yue people are considered by the civilized chinese of the central plain (中原) as uncivilized and therefore barbaric. Because of so many clans and tribes, the Yue people are also called the "Hundred Yue or Baiyue" (百越).

During the Spring/Autumn period, among the Yue people, the tribes that are more advanced and civilized will have to include the "Yue" (越) clan and " Gou Wu" (句吴) clan. During those times, they dwelled in the region of the lake Tai. The Yue clan founded the Yue state (in today's Zhejiang province region) while the Gou Wu established the Wu state (in today's Jiangsu province region). Later, the Wu state defeated the Yue state and the king of Yue, "Gou Jian" (勾践) had to rear horses for the king of Wu, "Fu Chai" (夫差). However, the king of Yue later gained trust from the king of Wu and he was allowed to return to Yue kingdom. Legend had it that after he returned to Yue kingdom, he worked very hard to make his kingdom strong. Finally after 10 years of hardwork, he finally defeated the Wu state. However, by the late Warring states period, the Kingdom of Yue was conquered by the Chu kingdom (one of the 7 strong states during the warring states period).

Although the Yue kingdom was conquered by the chu kingdom, the Yue people survived. The Yue people of former yue state and Wu state intermixed with the Hua Xia people (ancestors of Han-chinese) . After the warring states period, the "hundred Yue' term began to become popular. During the Western Han period, the people of the south were officially called "Hundred Yue". The "Yue" (越) could also referred to another Yue "粤" (which means "cantonese").

During the early Han dynasty period, the "Hundred Yue" were divided into "Eastern Ou" (东瓯), "Min Yue" (闽越), "Southern Yue" (南越), "Western Ou" (西瓯), "Luo Yue" (骆越) etc, main groups.

1. "Eastern Ou" (东瓯) - also known as "Ou Yue" (瓯越). They dwelled in the region of previous Yue and Wu state. (today's Zhejiang Wenzhou region)

2. "Min Yue" (闽越) - also within the region of previous Yue state (today's Fujiang province) - these were the ancestors of the "Min" chinese people today (who speaks Hokkien dialect)

3. "Southern Yue" (南越) - within the region of today's Guangdong province, later developed into the region of Guangxi province and its south part. They were the ancestors of cantonese today.

4. "Western Ou" (西瓯) - within the region of today's western part of Guangdong province and southern part of Guangxi province

5. "Luo Yue" (骆越) - today's north Vietnam region. The ancient Luo Yue people were the direct ancestors of today's Vietnamese. Today's vietnam in chinese is called "Yue Nan" (越南), which means south of Yue.

The above Yue people were all conquered by Emperor Han Wudi during his military expansion campaign of the south and after that, these regions in the south became part of the Han provinces. After this conquest, the term "Hundred Yue" disappeared from the history records of the chinese. Some of the Yue people were sinificised and mixed with the Han-chinese. Some of the Yue people became the ancestors of today's "Gao Shan" ethnic
(高山族) in Taiwan. Another Yue faction became today's "Dai" ethnic (傣族) in southern China. Others became today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China.

Basically, today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族) and "Tong" ethnic (侗族) in South China were related to the polynesian people in south-east asia.

It is thus important to note that Yue was a generic term to referred to barbarian people of the south during warring states.

Now, if someone can point to me the detail history of their migration, their mixing and their sinification, I would be very glad.

Edited by Yun, 05 January 2006 - 04:41 AM.

[Yun]

The legend goes that the Bai Yue were descended from 100 children born from an egg sac laid by Au Co (Yu Ji 妪姬), the wife of Lac Long Quan (Luo Long Jun 貉龙君), the founding father of the Yue people.

[Do let me know if the Chinese characters are incorrect, they seem to vary in different sources]

[Yun]

I'm sure you can find it on lots of Vietnamese websites on their history - there will be quite a few in English.

Basically, Lac Long Quan was the son of the King of Jingyang (Kinh Dong Vuong 泾阳王), who ruled a Kingdom called the Red Ghosts (Chigui/Xich Quy 赤鬼). The King of Jingyang swam to the bottom of Lake Dongting 洞庭 in Hunan, and married the daughter of the dragon spirit who ruled the lake. This was Lac Long Quan's mother.

The King of Jingyang himself was a descendant of Shennong 神农, the legendary Chinese Sage-King. His father had met a fairy while touring the Nanling Mountains 南岭 in the north of Guangdong, and married her.

Lac Long Quan succeeded his father as the ruler of Chigui, and taught his people to grow rice and wear clothes. But he spent most of his time underwater in the sea. A distant cousin attacked and seized his kingdom while he was away, but Lac Long Quan rushed back and defeated the cousin. He also captured his cousin's wife (or daughter, according to other sources) and married her - this was Au Co.

Because Lac Long Quan liked to live in the sea and Au Co liked to live on land, they decided to split their 100 sons between them. The eldest son stayed on land and became the ruler of the kingdom, and his name was Hung Vuong (Xiong Wang 雄王). He founded the dynasty that ruled Van Lang until it was overthrown by the King of Anyang.

[nishishei]

Although the Yue kingdom was conquered by the chu kingdom, the Yue people survived. The Yue people of former yue state and Wu state intermixed with the Hua Xia people (ancestors of Han-chinese) . After the warring states period, the "hundred Yue' term began to become popular. During the Western Han period, the people of the south were officially called "Hundred Yue". The "Yue" (越) could also referred to another Yue "粤" (which means "cantonese").

During the early Han dynasty period, the "Hundred Yue" were divided into "Eastern Ou" (东瓯), "Min Yue" (闽越), "Southern Yue" (南越), "Western Ou" (西瓯), "Luo Yue" (骆越) etc, main groups.

1. "Eastern Ou" (东瓯) - also known as "Ou Yue" (瓯越). They dwelled in the region of previous Yue and Wu state. (today's Zhejiang Wenzhou region)

2. "Min Yue" (闽越) - also within the region of previous Yue state (today's Fujiang province) - these were the ancestors of the "Min" chinese people today (who speaks Hokkien dialect)

3. "Southern Yue" (南越) - within the region of today's Guangdong province, later developed into the region of Guangxi province and its south part. They were the ancestors of cantonese today.

4. "Western Ou" (西瓯) - within the region of today's western part of Guangdong province and southern part of Guangxi province

5. "Luo Yue" (骆越) - today's north Vietnam region. The ancient Luo Yue people were the direct ancestors of today's Vietnamese. Today's vietnam in chinese is called "Yue Nan" (越南), which means south of Yue.

The account above leaves one thing out, so what happened to the original Wu-Yue people? From 瓯越 south are some very difficult terrain for that time period, it would seem unlikely that all the original inhabitants of Wu-Yue simply took off south. This notion of ONE Yue origin seems to me quite unfounded.

Basically, during the spring/autumn and warring states period times, the people that dwelled in the southern region of what's called "Zhejiang", "Fujian", "Guangdong" provinces today and northern part of "Vietnam" are called "Yue" people.

I think you are confusing 蛮 Man4 (southern barbarian) with 越 Yue4. 越 referred to the Yue Kingdom in most historical accounts then. Baiyue term wasn't used until much later.

[nishishei]

A much more likely scenario of Baiyue is this: Southern China was very diverse, with various ethnicities and tribes of different origins (Thai, Austroasiatic, Austronesian) and quite regionalized (this point is important); when the Sinitic influence came, each region absorbed the Sinicization to different degrees. The main migrations south were done by the Han Chinese, not indigenous peoples. This means that the Vietnamese and the other "Yue" groups are not the original inhabitants of Wu-Yue, nor are the inhabitants of Wu-Yue necessarily more Sinicized than other regions. There is no "pure Yue" continuum here from north to south (south being "purer"); they weren't even one people.

The diversity of southern dialects is living proof of this mozaic of peoples living in southern China.

To say they were one people is like calling the Mongolian a more authentic Manchurian. Ridiculous.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Au Co (Cien-a living being from heaven, could be depicted as mountains) and Lac Long Quan (Long-a living being from water).  The meaning in that story, the Yue are the true descendents of Cien and Dragon.  100 eggs stand for Bai Yue, too many kinds of Yue as standing for their last names.  50 went to the moutains and 50 went to the sea, represent the spilt of several Yue Kingdoms, but are truly genetically related.  There will be more
Let me ask, how the Southern Chinese and Pacific Islanders are genetically related?  Even with the polynesians in Hawaii are related to the Southern Chinese?  How about Indonesian?  What do you know about Indo-China?

Like2learn, please keep the topic to the discussion of the Yue people and not side-track or go Off-topic to the discussion of "Southern Chinese and Pacific Islanders are genetically related". Such kind of discussion is irrelevant in this topic and if you wish to discuss that, please do it in our Asian History forum.