[oceanic]

When in ancient times Lord Bao Xi ruled the world as sovereign, he looked up and observed the images in heaven and looked down and observed the models that earth provided.

Commentary to the Appended Phrases Xici Zhuan Part Two
Taken from Page 77 of Richard, John Lynn (1994) The Classic of Changes: A New Translation of the “I Ching” as Interpreted by Wang Bi

1. Could someone tell me who the author of the the above commentary in the classic of changes is? (was it confucius in the great treatise ten wings)

2. What or who is Xici Zhuan? (great treatise)

3. Is Lord Bao Xi the same as Fu Xi? And if so why the different name spelling?

4. Any alternative translation of the above verse available anywhere? Please provide details on the source.

Thanks.

[MengTzu]

oceanic, on Apr 23 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

1. Could someone tell me who the author of the the above commentary in the classic of changes is? (was it confucius in the great treatise ten wings)

Traditionally, yes, Confucius was credited with writing the ten wings (and yes, the commentary you cited is from the ten wings.)

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2. What or who is Xici Zhuan?

Xici Zhuan is 繫辭傳, one of the seven commentaries that make up the ten wings.

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3. Is Lord Bao Xi the same as Fu Xi? And if so why the different name spelling?

I THINK they are the same person.

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4. Any alternative translation of the above verse available anywhere? Please provide details on the source.

You can try James Legge's:

"Anciently, when Pâo-hsî had come to the rule of all under heaven, looking up, he contemplated the brilliant forms exhibited in the sky, and looking down he surveyed the patterns shown on the earth."

Can you read Chinese? It's best if you can read them in original, ancient Chinese, cuz things literally get lost in translation, not only when you translate to English, even when you translate to modern Chinese, some things might not carry through.

[oceanic]

Don't read classical chinese, whihc is what makes this so hard. General Zhaoyub does, but i can't seem to find the above verse in chinese to ask him to translate.

P.S. Could you direct me to Legge's version and the page number?

[MengTzu]

oceanic, on Apr 23 2005, 03:11 AM, said:

Don't read classical chinese, whihc is what makes this so hard. General Zhaoyub does, but i can't seem to find the above verse in chinese to ask him to translate.

P.S. Could you direct me to Legge's version and the page number?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/

Go to I Ching, Appendix III, section 2, chapter 11, about pp. 382, 383

[oceanic]

edit

[oceanic]

OK i Think i've figured this out for myself. Confucius wrote more than one of the ten wings, he wrote the 1st and the 2nd and the 5th and the 6th, possibly more from what i've learnt so far.

So who wrote the rest, breakdown exactly would be useful if it was people other than Confucius for all of them?

The verse i quoted seems to come from the 6th Wing or Part 2 of the Great Treatise, written by confucius supposedly. Correct?

Lastly could someone give me an explanantion for the above verse in its context, and any controversies surrounding it, such as maybe it meant something else, maybe it was a metaphor etc?

[MengTzu]

oceanic, on Apr 24 2005, 03:30 AM, said:

OK i Think i've figured this out for myself. Confucius wrote more than one of the ten wings, he wrote the 1st and the 2nd and the 5th and the 6th, possibly more from what i've learnt so far.

So who wrote the rest, breakdown exactly would be useful if it was people other than Confucius for all of them?

The verse i quoted seems to come from the 6th Wing or Part 2 of the Great Treatise, written by confucius supposedly. Correct?

Lastly could someone give me an explanantion for the above verse in its context, and any controversies surrounding it, such as maybe it meant something else, maybe it was a metaphor etc?

Now you're finding more than I know. I never heard of the ten wings being diced up and credited in parts to Confucius. I've only heard that he either wrote the whole thing, did some work to it, or didn't do anything to it at all.

I'd just read the quote plainly. Fu Xi invented the guas in order to portray the world symbolically. (Again, I'm doubtful that they were in fact invented by Fu Xi, who probably didn't exist, or probably was a tribe. Even if it's a tribe, I can't be certain if it invented the guas.)

[jwrevak]

MengTzu, on Apr 23 2005, 09:48 PM, said:

Now you're finding more than I know.  I never heard of the ten wings being diced up and credited in parts to Confucius.  I've only heard that he either wrote the whole thing, did some work to it, or didn't do anything to it at all.

I agree. According to sources I've read, tradition attributes all ten wings to Confucius. However, modern scholars typically reject this idea as far as I know. In reality, we don't know who wrote them.

"The later layers of the Book [the I Ching], the so-called Ten Wings, have, as is recalled, been attributed to Confucius by the orthodox tradition. It can now be shown that some of the wording of at least one of them, the Wen-Yen (Commentary on the Words of the Text), and some of hte material of at least one other, the Shuo Kua (Discussions of the Trigrams), were already available in pre-Confucian times. Most of the rest, however, is now generally assumed to be much later than Confucius." Hellmut Wilhelm, The I Ching or Book of Changes.

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I'd just read the quote plainly.  Fu Xi invented the guas in order to portray the world symbolically.

Basically I agree. I would also read the quote in context, which is about the history of civilization and how primitive human beings began to tame nature. Therefore, Fu-Hsi also invented the trigrams to enable human beings to begin this challenging process. "He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world." Pan Ku, Pai Hu T'ung.

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Againn, I'm doubtful that they were in fact invented by Fu Xi, who probably didn't exist, or probably was a tribe.  Even if it's a tribe, I can't be certain if it invented the guas.)

Yes, who knows for sure? No one.

[oceanic]

When the author says fu Xi observed the IMAGES in heaven and observed the MODELS that earth provided. Why did he use images to describe heaven and model to describe earth. I've looked at a few different translations ad they all use the same type of terminology, with heaven they use static terms and with earth they use more flowing/complicated system type of term.

I read on some website that from heaven Fu Xi gained one type of knoweldge about the trigrams, principles or somethign and from earth he gained another type of knowledge abotu the trigrams. I can't for the life of me find that website now, should bookmark everything, but i thought it wasn't importatn.


I think it was a website in white and yellow gold that described the trigrams and had these really nice diagrams with yang lines being in black and yin lines being in yellow. And had this big button at the bootom right that you use to click next. If anyone knows the website could you give me the url. It also had these big ying yang circles witht eh 8 trigrams circling them in an octagon disk. Bit like those chinese mirrors that are supposed to ward of evil in Bruce Lee the Dragon Story film. Thanks.

But back to my question could you tell me what type of knowledge Fu Xi learnt from heaven about he trigrams ad what type of knwoledge he learnt from earth regarding the trigrams. Any source would be appreciated.

[MengTzu]

oceanic, on Apr 24 2005, 11:48 PM, said:

When the author says fu Xi observed the IMAGES in heaven and observed the MODELS that earth provided. Why did he use images to describe heaven and model to describe earth. I've looked at a few different translations ad they all use the same type of terminology, with heaven they use static terms and with earth they use more flowing/complicated system type of term.

Can you read Chinese? Let's avoid the translations for the time being.

仰即觀象於天, 俯即觀法於地

象 can be explained as 形象. The Han Classicists are particularly interested in the study of 象數 -- forms and laws of these forms. Everything in nature are considered forms and images -- Heaven, Earth, mountains, streams. Here it is talking about the forms in Heaven -- stars, clouds, etc. 法 can be explained as 法則, the various patterns of Earth.

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But back to my question could you tell me what type of knowledge Fu Xi learnt from heaven about he trigrams ad what type of knwoledge he learnt from earth regarding the trigrams. Any source would be appreciated.

You seem to have something very specific in mind, and I'm not sure how to answer your questions. The way I understand this is that from Heaven and Earth, Fu Xi observed the interaction of Yin and Yang -- of activity and passivity, of strength and weakness, etc, and thus made the trigrams to describe these interactions of the various forces of things in nature.

[oceanic]

仰即觀象於天, 俯即觀法於地

象 can be explained as 形象. The Han Classicists are particularly interested in the study of 象數 -- forms and laws of these forms. Everything in nature are considered forms and images -- Heaven, Earth, mountains, streams. Here it is talking about the forms in Heaven -- stars, clouds, etc. 法 can be explained as 法則, the various patterns of Earth.

Can't read chinese, Could you please go over the above again. Thanks

My purpose is to anyalyse the original verse i posted in relation to different tranlsations and interpretations.

[jwrevak]

oceanic, on Apr 24 2005, 06:24 PM, said:

仰即觀象於天, 俯即觀法於地

象 can be explained as 形象. The Han Classicists are particularly interested in the study of 象數 -- forms and laws of these forms. Everything in nature are considered forms and images -- Heaven, Earth, mountains, streams. Here it is talking about the forms in Heaven -- stars, clouds, etc. 法 can be explained as 法則, the various patterns of Earth.

Can't read chinese, Could you please go over the above again. Thanks

My purpose is to anyalyse the original verse i posted in relation to different tranlsations and interpretations.

Well, go to a library or search the 'net and find other translations and interpretations.

Of equal importance, read the brief quote you are working on in context. Read the entire Great Treatise. Read published commentaries on it. What do they tell you, especially in light of what people have been saying here?

With all due respect, don't expect quick, easy, "correct" answers regarding a highly enigmatic text that is thousands of years old. That you have an interest in classical literature is great. Now I invite you to do some research and thinking about it.

[MengTzu]

oceanic, on Apr 25 2005, 01:24 AM, said:

仰即觀象於天, 俯即觀法於地

象 can be explained as 形象. The Han Classicists are particularly interested in the study of 象數 -- forms and laws of these forms. Everything in nature are considered forms and images -- Heaven, Earth, mountains, streams. Here it is talking about the forms in Heaven -- stars, clouds, etc. 法 can be explained as 法則, the various patterns of Earth.

Can't read chinese, Could you please go over the above again. Thanks

My purpose is to anyalyse the original verse i posted in relation to different tranlsations and interpretations.

Can you not read Chinese at all, or just your computer cannot see Chinese characters?

Let me repost what I wrote using phonetics:

仰即觀象於天, 俯即觀法於地 (yang ji guan xiang yu tian, fu ji guan fa yu di.)

象 (xiang) can be explained as 形象 (xing xiang, or "shape and forms.") The Han Classicists are particularly interested in the study of 象數 (xiang shu) -- forms and laws of these forms. Everything in nature are considered forms and images -- Heaven, Earth, mountains, streams. Here it is talking about the forms in Heaven -- stars, clouds, etc. 法 (fa) can be explained as 法則 (fa ji) the various patterns of Earth.

[MengTzu]

jwrevak, on Apr 25 2005, 10:57 PM, said:

Well, go to a library or search the 'net and find other translations and interpretations. 

At a certain point one just has to simply learn to read ancient Chinese, or at least modern Chinese, if he wants to get anywhere with in depth study of the classics. If one simply wants to get some general idea, or find something useful in the classics, I'm sure a translation would work. (Just as we can't expect all Christians to read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek.) But I think the extent that oceanic wants to go might require at least understanding the keywords in Chinese, because a lot of stuff are lost in translation.

[oceanic]

jwrevak, on Apr 25 2005, 04:57 PM, said:

Well, go to a library or search the 'net and find other translations and interpretations. 

Of equal importance, read the brief quote you are working on in context.  Read the entire Great Treatise.  Read published commentaries on it.  What do they tell you, especially in light of what people have been saying here?

With all due respect, don't expect quick, easy, "correct" answers regarding a highly enigmatic text that is thousands of years old.  That you have an interest in classical literature is great.  Now I invite you to do some research and thinking about it.

Have been to library, have read other translations, and interpretatioins, have read commentaries. I'm not out for quick easy correct answers, i don't even believe in the I Ching as a divination book (personal belief, no insult inteneded to other). In my opinion it works like a shrink, by acting like a mirror for you to play out your own inner psyche against. And i don't think in these type of texts there is ever A CORRECT ANSWER as you put it.

I'm out to understand it its differences as best i can wihtout having to learn chinese, (since i'm not that into it to want to learn chinese). And to do that sometimes it helps to talk to people rather than read a book, as you tend to notice things, pick up on things you missed, pick up on detail and potential insights. Things that when reading a book becuase you read so much text you tend to gloss over, and also due to the way the authors write you tend not to even notice these different possibilites and interpretations.

In other words i'm trying to play off of you guys my own thoughts, much like a debate where each arguement brings out a counter argument, making your own position clearer and making your own understanding clearer.