[Hang Li Po]

Hanja Or Hangul ?????

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hang Li Po, on May 12 2005, 08:05 PM, said:

Hanja Or Hangul ?????

He's referring to Korean in General, but in this case the cognates would come from the Hanja.

BTW, just as a note. Hangul is not the term for native Korean. It's simply the name of the alphabet. For instance, Hanja can be written with Hangul.

[MengTzu]

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I think Korean having 50% as Chinese words is like CBCs (ABCs) speaking Chinese with extensive use of English vocabs. It's like:

今天professor給了我的team一個很interesting的project﹐是有關telecommunication的﹐next month會due。

Whatever floats your boat bud.

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I like what u have sed lol...

Why Chan4059?

Inside Cantonese joke. We get kicks out of interpolating Cantonese with English words. It's kinda funny to us. Well, kinda.

[Bomi]

chan4059, on Apr 27 2005, 08:00 PM, said:

Are Korean mixed with Hans too... or no??

I was under the impression that the Koreans were descendants of a few Mongolian groups who decided to settle in the Korean Peninsula?

My 한국어선생님 (hanguko sonsengnim = Korean language teacher) told me that Koreans are Mongolic?

And if I am right, I don't think that Koreans are mixed with Hans, but we know that Hans have Mongol blood in them

[Bomi]

chan4059, on Apr 27 2005, 07:13 PM, said:

If the korean contains about 50% chinese, what is the other 50% ...???

The Korean vocabulary is composed of three components: -
~35% native words and affixes
~60% Sino-Korean words
~ 5% Loan words (such as English (of which makes up 90% of this catergory) example of English loan word for ballpen = polp'en 볼펜)

chan4059, on Apr 27 2005, 02:05 PM, said:

I am wondering I been watching Dae Jang Guem (大長今) and I have been noticing that some korean words sound like cantonese; therefore, I want to know if Korean was a Chinese dialect or some sort...

Yun, on Apr 27 2005, 05:14 PM, said:

GJ, any new views on the Chinese record saying that Chin-Han spoke the Qin dialect? Does it suggest that the early Korean kingdoms were influenced by a very ancient form of Chinese, even before the Middle Chinese of the Age of Fragmentation, Sui and Tang?

The Sino-Korean word are borrowed around the middle Chinese era. Some pronounciations will sound very much like Cantonese or Hokkien. This is probably because the dialects in the South, especially Hokkien, did not go through changes which the Northern dialects experience.

MengTzu, on Apr 27 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

I have wondered about this -- I've heard that the "f" sound is nonexistent in Han dynasty Chinese, and voila, the sound is also absent in modern Korean.  I'm guessing the Koreans actually kept this feature that is lost among the Chinese    Am I way off or do I get a cigar    Note: I'm in no way claiming that Koreans originally spoke Chinese.  At least the present form of Korean did not originate out of a Chinese dialect -- the syntax is just way, way different.  The similarities come from the loan words.

The consonant /f/ for example, appered in the Northern dialects around the Tang period, but the Min dialects (e.g.Hokkien) retained the labial [p], [p'] and [b] of the Middle Chinese. What is even cooler here is that the Min dialect preserved the dental [t] and [t'] which BECAME [ty], [t'y] and [dy] in MIDDLE CHINESE!!!!
Then we have the nasal consonants [m], [n] and [ng] which lost its nasalization amongst Southern Min and became [b], [l] and [g]. By the way, [m], [n] and [ng] was also kept by the Cantonese while Mandarin had lost it.

Anyway, I can feel myself getting carried away - I'm so sorry.... but I think that the Sino-Korean words were borrowed probably no later than the 7th Century. Check it out; number 6 in mandarin = liu, middle chinese = lyuk, Sino-Korean counter= yuk, Hokkien = lak, Cantonese= lok? Please try to ignore the spelling and just listen to the sound here... If you write it out using IPA, then you can see the link. What do you think of the Sino-Korean pronounciation here, Middle Chinese or older???

It is interesting to note that the 'Old Chinese' (pre 7th Century Middle Chinese) had consonant cluster, and old native Korean words also had consonant clusters of which are still written the same but the last consonant is no longer prononced unless if it precede a vowel. Hmm... interesting.... man I wish we knew what old Chinese sounded like and that I had more info on it..... Hmm... getting too excited

If you listen to the Sino-Korean words carefully, the pronounciation is much closer to that of Min dialects.

Also, Korean is often referred to as a "free word order" language because it allows for the elements to be scrambled for emphatic or other figurative purposes as long as it's verb or adjective final, which is not identical to Mandarin. e.g.

John school-at Mary-with tennis plays
school-at Mary-with John tennis plays
Mary-with tennis John school-at plays
tennis John school-at Mary-with plays etc

Please note that Korean Language allows ommition of particles and situationally understood elements.

Umm... ok, I'm going to stop now because I'm just going to go on and on and bore you guys to tears! Sorry guys, I'm a sucker for linguistics, especially historical linguistucs and ethnolinguistics

[MengTzu]

Hey Bomi,

What exactly do you mean by Sino-Korean words? Do you mean words that are derived from Middle Chinese?

[Bomi]

MengTzu, on May 20 2005, 11:43 PM, said:

Hey Bomi,

    What exactly do you mean by Sino-Korean words?  Do you mean words that are derived from Middle Chinese?

yup, Sino-Korean = Korean words borrowed from Chinese words. Not to be confused with loan-words which covers ~5% in Korean vocab = borrowed words of today (90% English and 10% other)

[Moreshige]

Bomi, on May 20 2005, 05:51 AM, said:

yup, Sino-Korean = Korean words borrowed from Chinese words.  Not to be confused with loan-words which covers ~5% in Korean vocab = borrowed words of today (90% English and 10% other)

Bomi. Where do you get your information? I would love to learn more! Are there good universities that teach linguistic histories? I'm particularly interested in "Chinhan" because that Korean state was known to have people who came from China (Qin dynasty). And it has been speculated that some from that state even went over to Japan.

I'm also interested if linguists can tell if Sino-Japanese words were borrowed either directly from China or if did they come through Korea. I suspect both.

For one thing in religion and art, we know Chinese Buddhism was introduced to Japan through Paekche monks. So in a way the Japanese recieved Chinese Buddhism with a Korean flavor so to speak. Does language borrowing work in a similar fashion?

As to further point out to Kenji's post who suggests that Cantonese words may be similar to many Japanese words, the word for 'world' is 'Saegye' in Korean as well. Did the Japanese directly borrow this word from southern China or did it come from the Korean peninsula?

chinese words--> sino-korean-->sino-japanese or
chinaese words--->sino-japanese?


(I'm not suggesting Japanese or Korean is related to Chinese here. I just talking about borrowed words)

[Moreshige]

I'm still looking for an answer about sino-japanese and sino-korean words.

Here's what I did learn about borrowed English words that got incorporated into Korean. The word, 'nan-ning sha-su' means undershirt in Korean. But it was not borrowed directly from English. Rather, it was borrowed from Japan in which we find the original English words to be 'running shirt.'

Given the history of the West and Japan as well as Japan's annexation of Korea in the early 20th century we can understand how an English word like 'nan-ning sha-su' may have come from Japan.

But as for Sino-Korean and Sino-Japanese words, I suspect that a number of Sino-Japanese words came to Japan via Korea before Japanese writing came about.
Of course, this is just speculation. I hope someone can shed a better light on this.

[stupidumboy]

Nearly 60% of the Korean words are Chinese characterized meanigns.

I am studying engineering and nearlly 100 % of the academic words used in this field are Chinese chracterized.


Authentic Korean words had become much less written since United Shinra Kingdom period and thus Korean people became much less familiar with them

Modern Koreans are much more familair with Chinese character words than authentic Korean words.

It is like that many authentic korean words sound very strange to Koreans today.

[Bomi]

Moreshige, on Jun 8 2005, 06:44 PM, said:

Bomi.  Where do you get your information?

I'm studying Korean Language this year Also I ask too many questions in my lecture Heh, I like to get my every cents worth in University.

Moreshige, on Jun 8 2005, 06:44 PM, said:

I'm also interested if linguists can tell if Sino-Japanese words were borrowed either directly from China or if did they come through Korea.  I suspect both. 

To my knowledge Sino-Japanese were borrowed directly from China. There were Japanese scholars sent to China to study the language.

Southern Chinese preserved many old Chinese words (from around 7th Century period) and consonant sounds, so maybe borrowings of Chinese words occurred then? Or perhaps the first contacts were from the Southerners? I know that the Minanese were excellent sea farers and also cunning tradesmen, so perhaps the Japanese main point of contact were through the Southerners? I know a lot of Sino-Korean words sounds a lot like Hokkien words, infact it is closer match to Minanese words than Sino-Japanese is in pronounciation - but then Japanese likes their words to end with a vowel. [k] is found in word ending position in Korean language which is a big help with some pronounciation in Sino-Korean - i.e. the word of book in Korean is borrowed from Chinese, interestingly it is identical to the Hokkien word for book - 'Chaek' (my spelling might be off but it sounds like the word yak as in yakking, but with [y] replaced with [ch] and the [k] is not aspirated)

[Moreshige]

Bomi, on Jun 8 2005, 12:39 PM, said:

I'm studying Korean Language this year   Also I ask too many questions in my lecture   Heh, I like to get my every cents worth in University.
To my knowledge Sino-Japanese were borrowed directly from China. There were Japanese scholars sent to China to study the language.

Southern Chinese preserved many old Chinese words (from around 7th Century period) and consonant sounds, so maybe borrowings of Chinese words occurred then?  Or perhaps the first contacts were from the Southerners? I know that the Minanese were excellent sea farers and also cunning tradesmen, so perhaps the Japanese main point of contact were through the Southerners?  I know a lot of Sino-Korean words sounds a lot like Hokkien words, infact it is closer match to Minanese words than Sino-Japanese is in pronounciation - but then Japanese likes their words to end with a vowel.  [k] is found in word ending position in Korean language which is a big help with some pronounciation in Sino-Korean - i.e. the word of book in Korean is borrowed from Chinese, interestingly it is identical to the Hokkien word for book - 'Chaek' (my spelling might be off but it sounds like the word yak as in yakking, but with [y] replaced with [ch] and the [k] is not aspirated)

Can you tell me the dates when the Japanese went to China to learn classical Chinese and their sources? Is it recorded in the Kojiki and Nihongi or Chinese records?
Very interesting. I wish I can ask your professors if they knew the language of the Qin(Chin) dynasty. Was it similar to the Southern dialects you mentioned?

What province did Hokkien originate? And which dialect does sino-Japanese resemble?

I also need to know where in China was the state of Qin located. Was it a southern dynasty?

I don't want to badger you too much. I'd rather purchase some books on ancient east asian languages....if there are any.

[Adee]

No offense Moreshige, but some of your questions can be answered if you search around the forums. As for Sino-Japanese words, it is mostly borrowed directly from China especially from thw Wu dialect as explained in aother thread.

[Bomi]

Moreshige, on Jun 9 2005, 09:21 AM, said:

Can you tell me the dates when the Japanese went to China to learn classical Chinese and their sources?  Is it recorded in the Kojiki and Nihongi or Chinese records?
Very interesting.  I wish I can ask your professors if they knew the language of the Qin(Chin) dynasty.  Was it similar to the Southern dialects you mentioned?

What province did Hokkien originate?  And which dialect does sino-Japanese resemble?

I also need to know where in China was the state of Qin located.  Was it a southern dynasty?   

I don't want to badger you too much.  I'd rather purchase some books on ancient east asian languages....if there are any.

As per what Adee said above, just do a bit of searching and reading in this forum.

I tell you what, if you're after books, Robert Ramsey writes a good book - "The languages of China", also, Olson wrote "An Ethnohistorical dictionary of China", Bernhard Karlgren (1889-1978) ancient chinese linguistics, Hong Wontak- Paeckche of korea and the origin of yamamoto japan Myongwhasa head on down to the library or bookstore. that's what I did.

BTW Hokkien is a Minnanese dialect - Fujian province, there are also Hokkiens in Taiwan, a lot actually... and throughout South East Asia. I made some comment about it in one of these threads....

[Moreshige]

Thanks a lot for the book info. I'm new here so I didn't try the search feature before. But I just entered, 'Qin dynasty' and all I got was an error message stating that it has less than 3 characters.