[bhchao]

Many people see Han Wudi as one of the greatest emperors. But was he really that great? And do you think he is overrated?

One of his accomplishments was expanding the Han empire to its height during his reign. But should that be a criteria to justify his greatness? A result of his expansionist policies was higher taxes to finance them, and this caused a huge drain on the economy. This was one of the reasons contributing to the Western Han decline.

Even though he promoted Confucianism during his reign and founded a Confucian academy, he was really a Legalist emperor in the likes of Qin Shi Huang, operating under a Confucian guise. He was ruthless towards dissent, and often put to death people who disagreed with him. Historians often call Han Wudi a slightly improved version of Qin Shi Huang.

Just like Qin Shi Huang, he killed entire families for one person's crime. In the Li Ling Affair, he had Li Ling's mother, wife, and son executed for defecting to the Xiongnu.

His government monopolies on salt and iron also had a negative impact on the economy.

On the other hand, you have to give him credit for sending Zhang Qian on an expedition west to gather more information on regions bordering China's western frontier. Without that expedition, the Silk Road would not have materialized.

Towards the end of Wudi's reign, wealthy landowners got away from paying taxes, and he was not able to correct this problem.

He was a somewhat crazy emperor too, focused on immortality like Qin Shi Huang.

If I had to pick a great, benign Han dynasty emperor, I would select Han Wendi and Han Jingdi, but not Han Wudi. These are just my viewpoints. Feel free to disagree with me. What are your thoughts on this?

[ahbian]

i don't know how highly historians rate him compared to other great rulers but my impression is he is definitely bold and decisive in his thinking and policies.
does his positives outweigh his negatives, i'm not sure. but i thought he only started becoming senile in his old age with the superstition stuff and killed alot of people because he was paranoid.

[General_Zhaoyun]

bhchao, on May 1 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

Many people see Han Wudi as one of the greatest emperors. But was he really that great? And do you think he is overrated?

One of his accomplishments was expanding the Han empire to its height during his reign. But should that be a criteria to justify his greatness? A result of his expansionist policies was higher taxes to finance them, and this caused a huge drain on the economy. This was one of the reasons contributing to the Western Han decline.

This is true. Just like Qianlong during Qing dynasty, their ancestors left them with great wealth accumulated over many years such that they can use much resources in war campaign. Although there was a huge drain on the economy towards end of his reign, it is to be noted that Han Wudi's main contribution is the elimination of threat from XiongNu for at least 40 years, which had been threatening Han for over 60 years.

Han Wudi was more famously known for his military strategy. As far as I can say, no other chinese emperors has undertook such great-scale military campaign in history and match his great political and military strategy, except for Tang Taizong of Tang dynasty.

I would still give him much credit for his military contribution, esp. the training of chinese army into cavalry-based troops, the study of warfare tactics from Xiongnu etc.

Towards the end of reign, Han Wudi noticed that his military policy had drained much of the imperial coffer, and people started suffering. The incidence of Wugu further caused a number of imperial tragedy which forced him to re-inspect his past deeds. He made an inspection tour and stopped all war, as well as wrote a 'repent' phrase publicly to point to his failure and mistakes. No emperors had made that kind of public repentance in history.

bhchao said:

Even though he promoted Confucianism during his reign and founded a Confucian academy, he was really a Legalist emperor in the likes of Qin Shi Huang, operating under a Confucian guise. He was ruthless towards dissent, and often put to death people who disagreed with him. Historians often call Han Wudi a slightly improved version of Qin Shi Huang.

Just like Qin Shi Huang, he killed entire families for one person's crime. In the Li Ling Affair, he had Li Ling's mother, wife, and son executed for defecting to the Xiongnu.

Like all Emperors, Han Wudi is autocratic. It was true that he tends to favour a legalistic rule of punishing people and ruthlessness. I would say he was more influenced by military thinking, i.e. the use of military law and Sun Tzu's art of war.

We had to understand why he did it. It was to be noted that Han Wudi's main strategy was to make sure that there is no internal conflict so that he can concentrate all efforts to deal with external threat from XiongNu. So what he did was to make sure that no persons can threaten him in court,. The use of terror tactics by him make sure all dissent were silent.

Han Wudi was in fact much influenced by Confucianism. His imperial teacher was a confucius scholar. That's why he adopted Confucianism as the state philosophy. The reason why he silenced some confucianist scholar is to make sure they do not debate or stirr up/act against the han-soldier's intention to eliminate XiongNu.

Military was the dominant thinking behind Han Wudi.

bhchao said:

His government monopolies on salt and iron also had a negative impact on the economy.

I think, the reform by Shang Hongyang (桑弘羊) actually helped to increase revenue for Han court so that Han Wudi can continue his campaign against Xiongnu.

bhchao said:

On the other hand, you have to give him credit for sending Zhang Qian on an expedition west to gather more information on regions bordering China's western frontier. Without that expedition, the Silk Road would not have materialized.

Towards the end of Wudi's reign, wealthy landowners got away from paying taxes, and he was not able to correct this problem.

This is true.

bhchao said:

He was a somewhat crazy emperor too, focused on immortality like Qin Shi Huang.

If I had to pick a great, benign Han dynasty emperor, I would select Han Wendi and Han Jingdi, but not Han Wudi. These are just my viewpoints. Feel free to disagree with me. What are your thoughts on this?

When one grows old, he tends to be senile. The incidence of Wugu was the clear evidence for his 'crazyness'. Han Wudi is not a benign emperor. He was more of a political and military strategist. I feel that Han's military greatness was enhanced during his period. But, economy suffered as a result of years of war.

Thus in history, there is the famous so-called "zhi zhi 之治 " reign of Han Wendi and Han Jingdi" in which there are much peace and prosperity. But Han Wudi's reign is not known as "zhi zhi".

[Wu Zetian]

Although I disagree with many of the things that Han Wudi did (according to the TV series Han Wu Da Di), I definitely admire him for having the courage to write a public document (known as 輪台罪己詔)criticising himself for some past deeds.

Very few people will be able to do this, and an aging Chinese emperor would be one of the LAST people that I would expect to do this. I think this reflects on him favourably as someone who is open to criticism and new ways of thinking, even if they are not agreeable to him

[bhchao]

Thanks for your feedback on Han Wudi, General Zhaoyun. Even though Wudi was not a benign emperor, he did safeguard the territorial integrity of the Han empire by going on the offensive against the Xiongnu.

I think if Han Wudi was Yue Fei's boss, he would tell Yue Fei to kick the Jurchens back into the Stone Age.

[Sun Wukong]

I don't think Han Wudi was overrated, he was one of Han's greatest emperor. Bring the empire to its greatest extent. He was great political thinker and a great military strategist. He brought in with him different ideas, resources, and different cultures from the lands he conquered. In my opinion, I think he was greater than Han Gaozu himself. After his death however, the dynasty decline with taxes, the economy dropping and other things like that.

Overall he was a great Emperor of Han.

[Jiang Qin]

Yeah ... he ws the greatest among all of Han, all all of Chinese History.

[jiangji]

I agree that Han Wudi was overrated. Eventhough Han Wudi did eliminate the xiongnu threat, it achieve with great expenses. The song dynasty manage to achieve peace with the northern kingdom through tribute with benefits greatly outweight costs eventhough it finally fall to northern kingdom.

Does people consider USSR a great superpower? It has great military power but people suffered greatly as the result as most resources being devoted to military and foreign aid.

[ale73p21]

Was the Xiong Nu threat military eliminated by Wu Di? It's true that for most part of his reign, the Xiong Nu were contained or defeated, but in 99 and 90 BC they inflicted two defeats to Han armies, so they look far from being defeated in the end of Wudi reign.

[Kenneth]

Quote

Many people see Han Wudi as one of the greatest emperors. But was he really that great? And do you think he is overrated?

One of his accomplishments was expanding the Han empire to its height during his reign. But should that be a criteria to justify his greatness? A result of his expansionist policies was higher taxes to finance them, and this caused a huge drain on the economy. This was one of the reasons contributing to the Western Han decline.

Even though he promoted Confucianism during his reign and founded a Confucian academy, he was really a Legalist emperor in the likes of Qin Shi Huang, operating under a Confucian guise. He was ruthless towards dissent, and often put to death people who disagreed with him. Historians often call Han Wudi a slightly improved version of Qin Shi Huang.

Good thread, good points.
All of that is true, but I would consider him great for the lasting impact he had on China (or rather the events that happened during his reign), both in its borders and understanding of the outside world.
JingDi might have been the right man for the time, as the Han stilled needed to consolidate and give China a breather after Qin...but I find 'do nothing and all will be well' a rather uninspiring sort of ethos. Yes, it worked but I have a soft spot for the fascist view of the state as a bioloigical entitiy. JingDi accepted the advice of others around him and his own chancellors clumsy attempts at dipolamacy drove some kingdoms to the brink of revolt. JingDi removed him (had him cut in half at the waist) to maintain peace but the final world on internal & foreign policy should have been with him.
In this way Wudi makes much more of an impact on me as an expansionist, and while admittedly draining China he outwardly projects a virile China to the South, North, East, and West. Its influence and security seems more assured despite the cost. JingDi may have had his own style of keeping peace withthe Xioingu (marriages to Han princesses etc.) but Wudi didnt ask. He took! (well, he did engage in diplomacy and divide and conquer as well...but he is the 'martial Emperor in the historical conciousness).
I even note the difference between the horses depicted during Han and the Qin. The West Han horses are visibly larger, while the terracotta warriors show a horse halfway up a soldiers chest at the hip, the Han horses depicted in ceramics were up to a shoulder. Han Wudi wanted these 'celestial horses' from the West...and he took them!
The silk road had existed for centuries and yet the Chinese only managed to be aware of it and control parts of the route into central Asian during Wudis time.
Yes, he was cruel to those that fell short of his expectations but he rewarded those that served well. He may not have been a nice guy, but 'nice' isnt 'great'.. he comments about the 'legalist' philosophy are correct it seems though. I hadn't thought of that before...however legalism is what established a unified China in the first instance so has its merits too.
A great man needs a forceful character and an ability to be ruthless and take calculated risks, strengthen his country establish order and hopefully from this prosperity will follow etc (here I am being a closet fascist again) but in this way I find Wudi a figure who casts a long shadow down through Chinese history. The visiting of his tomb mound outside of Xian was one of the highlights of the places I visited there.
Go Wudi! You want it ! You take it!

[fragrant swallow]

Kenneth, on Jul 15 2005, 08:23 AM, said:

I even note the difference between the horses depicted during Han and the Qin. The West Han horses are visibly larger, while the terracotta warriors show a horse halfway up a soldiers chest at the hip, the Han horses depicted in ceramics were up to a shoulder. Han Wudi wanted these 'celestial horses' from the West...and he took them!
The silk road had existed for centuries and yet the Chinese only managed to be aware of it and control parts of the route into central Asian during Wudis time.

Pardon me if I am wrong here for I have limited knowledge on Chinese history, but based on my understanding following my recent trip to Silk Road, the Silk Road was opened by Shangqian under orders of Han Wudi. The Xiongnu are said to be of bigger built (physically) and their horses bigger and stronger. Therefore in the course of exchange or trade as Zhangqian travelled the Silk Road, Xiongnu horses were exchanged for.

[Kenneth]

Yes, that is a little bit 'off the mark'. Wudi was informed of the silk road which already existed...and told of Chinese goods being traded in central Asian markets by his far travelling diplomat who escaped from the Xiongnu. The 'silk road' had existed for some time, and the middle men made a nice profit from it without the Chinese being involved. The Chinese took steps to control the route through central Asia and so the borders of the Han sphere of control had a distinct 'bulge' out through central Asia as a result of these efforts. The Turkic/central Asian kingdoms did good business out of this and took steps to actively discourage and trick Roman envoys from not making the trip to China (for the Romans and Chinese empires became aware of each other). It was not untill East Han that a Roman ambassador reached the Chinese court. Roman & Persian coins as well as glass form the West has been found in China....but the movement of goods from China existed before the Chinese actually became aware of it.
Re; celestial horses....they aren't Xiongnu steeds and the depictation of horses in Western Han art (ceramics and bronze) are striking. I noticed the difference clearly when I saw some of the terracota warriors up close with a rider beside them....as I have seen many Han ceramics too. The Han horses are much larger, and the Qin horses (with all the attention to detail & life size) are a small pony.
It is sometime after JingDi (Wudi's father) that the chariots seem to fade from the battlefield after a nearly 500 year decline and I believe it is the breeding of effective strong horses for the military which made a mobile platform transported by a team of smaller Chinese horses finally an uneconomic weapon. Chariots were retained for hunting, the nobilty and command posts.....but they never occupied the position that they had during the Sang & Zhou periods. The elaborate and decorative fittings for such chariots seem to not occur in the archaeolgical record after West Han. I attribute this to changes in Wudi's time.http://www.silk-road...artl/wuti.shtml

Quote

While Chang Ch'ien was staying at Fergana, he was particularly impressed with the fine horses of Kokand which sweated blood and were believed to be the descendants of supernatural or celestial horses. From him, Wu-ti learned that two thousand miles away in Fergana, great steeds of sixteen hands were bred, and named them 'Heavenly Horses' or 'Celestial Horses'. Since the campaigns agaist Xiongnu demanded vast numbers of war horses with qualities of size, stamina and muscle not possessed by indigenous breeds, Wu-ti decided to bring those Celestial Horses to Han's court. ........
.........Wu-ti's initial attempt to trade the Celetial Horses with gold coins was rejected by the king of Fergana and the Han envoy sent for the negotiation was murdered and stripped. When the news arrived Chang'an, Wuti was furious and decided to take them by force. He appointed Li Guangli to lead the expedition. In 104 BC, Li Guangli set off to win the horses with 6000 horsmen and thousands of foot soldiers. However they were not able to defeat Fergana and forced to retreat to Dunhuang. There Li Guangli with only few remaining men waited for the reinforcements from Wu-ti. In 102 BC, Wu-ti embarked the second military campaign in an army of 60,000 men, 30,000 horses, 100,000 head of cattle and thousands of donkeys and camels marching out towards Fergana. They reached the capital and successfully besieged it.  They returned to China with a great haul of the famous Fergana steeds. Fergana provided them with the best celetial horses as well as 3000 ordinary stallions and mares. Furthmore two celestial horses would be sent every year. The two campaigns had lasted four years. Since then the 'celestial horses' were bred in China...

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=685

Quote

....Recently I was reading an article on this "Tian ma" 天马 (heavenly horse), in which Emperor Wu of Han (Han Wudi) used force against Yuezhi (大月氏) to obtain (during Western han period). Han Wudi was supposingly quite superstitious in that he believed that this horse could send him to the heaven. However, his primary aim of getting this horse is to help reform the Han cavalry so that he can continue successfully the campaign against the Xiongnu.

http://www.turanianh...org/origin.html
other examples of nations coveting the horses of others; below.

Quote

Thracian Iron Age horses from south-east Europe were described as slender with slim legs and belonging to the eastern breed. In general they were larger and more powerful than the Celtic animals and numerous links connected these horses with the Iron Age horses of Central Asia. "On the basis of the considerable difference in size in favour of eastern horses they could be deemed better animals from the point of view of horse breeding, for, owing to the greater mass of their bodies, they were able to carry heavier loads, to move more rapidly with a rider of equal weight and to carry more easily riders wearing armour and to cover longer distances. All these qualities provided reasons why people who lived in the distribution area of the western group of horses were anxious to acquire the eastern horses, which were better than their own … These horses, by the way, found their way not only to Europe but also to Africa.......

.....The originally small-bodied Greek horses were subsequently improved by the great masses of horses imported from the Eastern group, like the twenty thousand Scythian mares imported by Philip of Macedon, of the fifty thousand eastern horses in the Persian spoil of Alexander the Great. As a result of cross breeding with these horses the large bodied horses of the Roman cavalry were produced.......

.......They must have been highly valued by the Scythians themselves, and so it was only the leaders who came by them … The horses in question were chiefly Ferghana Horses (Ferghana is a loosely used geographical term which can include Turkmenistan) whose fame was well known in China too. The horses were slender and big as against Chinese ones......

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 16 July 2005 - 12:01 AM

[Tibet Libre]

http://www.silk-road...artl/wuti.shtml

From a military and strategic point of view, Wu Ti's expedition must have been one of the highlights of ancient warfare. The first time I read in a book about the campaign I was like: Uuu, is the author serious? I took a map off the shelves and measured the distances between the border of the Chinese heartland and Fergana - Wu Ti's army had to move west another China in his breadth so to speak, all the while with the nomads threatening its flank. Amazing!

Even though the Chinese army apparently suffered huge losses, the move must have paid off pretty quickly against the Xiongnu. The Chinese now could confront the nomadic people on equal hooving, err footing. The military long term effects can't be overestimated, though, how the worlds works, they would have gotten the steeds one way or other sooner or later. Wu Ti must be credited for getting them sooner.

It's interesting to see how the city civilizations like the Chinese and Greeks went to so much pain to get their hands on the nomadic steeds. As if they were gold on four hooves or something.

BTW Did Wu Ti personally lead the campaign?

[jiangweibaoye]

To All,

Han WuDi always fascinated me. I compared him with Tang Taizong & Yongle.

Can anybody refer me to a book concerning Han WuDi in English? Thanks.

Also, I don't think he is overrated. If you think he is overrated, you should say the same for QianLong. For me, it is not enough that a particular emperor accomplished something, but also accomplish it under great adversity. Hence, I included Yongle.

[General_Zhaoyun]

jiangweibaoye, on Aug 5 2005, 03:30 AM, said:

To All,

Han WuDi always fascinated me.  I compared him with Tang Taizong & Yongle.

Can anybody refer me to a book concerning Han WuDi in English?  Thanks.

I've yet to discover a good english book on Han Wudi, but there seem to be a new english book on him called "Han Wu Di and Ancient China (Rulers and Their Times)" by Miriam Greenblatt . You might want to check it out.