[snowybeagle]

Yuè Fēi (岳飞), AD 1103 - 1142, was one of the most famous patriot, martyr and hero in Chinese history.

His death engineered by the Emperor GaoZong of Song and minister Qin Kuai (秦桧) is well known.

However, I personally find the actual charge of Mò Xū You (莫须有) to be the most hard to understand.

This was besides the earlier fabricated accusations made against him by Qin Kuai's cronies such as Imperial Inspector Moqi Xie (万俟卨) which charged him with failure to act when the Jurchens attacked Huai Xi (淮西) as well as withdrawing from numerous battlegounds, and another by former superior Zhang Jun (张俊), former subordinates Wang Gui (王贵) and Wang Jun (王俊) accusing him of trying to make use of subordinate Zhang Xian (张宪) to seize the city of XiangYang (襄阳).

I have encountered different explanations for the term Mò Xū You in the Chinese language and the English language, but none were satisfactory.
Of course, I accept that all charges against Yue Fei were triumphed-up in the first place, but I thought at least some decorum of form was observed even by the Emperor and Qin Kuai. Qin Kuai might be a villain, but he was far from being stupid.

One explanation as given in Chinese (website 杨周：鹿象辩论－－中国千年大悲剧（七）) was Yue Fei was guilty of disobeying the recall order until 12 "golden tablets" had to be despatched. Yue Fei's explanation that a general commanding an away force had the discretion to decide how to respond to the ruler's order (将在外, 君命有所不受) was deemed "unacceptable".
It was the unacceptability of that excuse that was the actual Mò Xū You. Qin Kuai was saying that Yue Fei's initial non-compliance with the recall order had no legal basis.

Due to the unpopularity of the action, the meaning of Mò Xū You became synonymous with "not guilty" (无罪名), and its original meaning forgotten.

It was actually not certain if Yue Fei even used the excuse of being a general in distant command. Nor was there any real proof that he intended to defy the recall order. Strictly speaking, the phrase (将在外, 君命有所不受) itself was a conventional wisdom rather than appear in any written military regulation, at least at the era.

Subsequently, another explanation arose for Mò Xū You as "Not Necessarily There" (不必有), which was derived from a very literal character by character reading of 莫须有. This was an outright abuse of power on the part of the lord towards the subject.

Yet a third explanation (website "莫须有"的罪名) arose that the term Mò Xū You was the pretext given by Qin Kuai to General Han ShiZong (韩世忠) who questioned the existence of evidence against Yue Fei's conspiring with Zhang Xian. Qin Kuai meant that the lack of evidence might not mean innocence. In other words, it is presumed guilt. The catch was it was practically impossible to prove innocence because there was no definite detail of what the guilt was or how to prove something did not exist.

Does any one know the actual charges made against Yue Fei and the original meaning of Mò Xū You (莫须有)?

[highlander]

In my opinion, the trumped up charge against Yuefei of Mò Xū You (莫须有) is as good as (或许有) "which means may have had the intentions or may have wanted to". In the case of Yuefei, Gaozong & Qinhui basically accused him of having the intentions to rebel. Many historians point out that it was Gaozong and not Qinhui that masterminded the downfall of Yuefei, as Gaozong feared that he would have to relinquish his throne had Yuefei did manage to rescue Huizong & Qinzong from the Jurchens. Qinhui only went along with the wishes of Gaozong as he hated and was jealous of Yuefei as well. In conclusion, Yuefei was doomed right from the beginning when he took his vow in front of the entire court that he will erase the humiliation the Song Dynasty has suffered when they lost Kaifeng and the 2 Emperors to the Jurchens, this humiliating defeat for the Song has been termed as "靖康之耻".

[snowybeagle]

While Qin Kuai was no mere lackey following his master's wishes, the emperor was definitely the culprit.

Years ago, I read an article that Emperor GaoZong actually had no reason to and did not fear the return of his father and brother. He had already established his own power base and his own Court in the south.

The article suggested that it was Yue Fei himself that the Emperor mistrusted. From what I can remember, there were a few arguments for that.

First, Yue Fei was not the only general or official rooting to fight the Jurchens or rescuing the two captive emperors. Nor was he the only successful general against the Jurchens.

Second, the Emperor had been deposed briefly in AD 1129 by two of his generals, Miao Fu (苗傅) and Liu ZhengYan (刘正彦), which led him to be wary of generals, a traditional fixation of Song emperors.

Third, Yue Fei himself had "overstepped" his limits as a general in some incidents, one in particular about appointing an heir for the impotent Gao Zong, the other was to mourn for his mother and unilaterally quit his post (attributed to being given command and then relieved command of the Huai Xi army). There were other instances when he persisted in objecting to the Emperor even after other loyal officials realised its futility and counter-productiveness.

One interesting article in chinese.
http://www.djz.edu.m...gguo/yuefei.htm

An alternative look at Yue Fei from the Jurchen's official records.
http://www.guxiang.c...00311020001.htm
alternative website http://cul.sohu.com/...219672361.shtml

One more website proposing that the emperor executed Yue Fei to restore his air of authority
http://military.chin...1/12233131.html

Another site explaining how politics and Yue Fei's personality led to fatal end.
http://military.chin...1/12233089.html

[Yun]

I have also read what Highlander mentioned, that Mo Xu You 莫须有 was a version of the phrase Huo Xu You 或许有 ("there may have been a crime").

BTW, can someone confirm whether 秦桧 is Qin Kui, Qin Gui, Qin Kuai, or Qin Hui? I've seen it pronounced in all sorts of ways.

[MING-LOYALIST]

Yun, on May 6 2005, 03:51 AM, said:

I have also read what Highlander mentioned, that Mo Xu You 莫须有 was a version of the phrase Huo Xu You 或许有 ("there may have been a crime").

BTW, can someone confirm whether 秦桧 is Qin Kui, Qin Gui, Qin Kuai, or Qin Hui? I've seen it pronounced in all sorts of ways.

Well I've known the character is pronouced 'Gui' in Mandarin. However Everyone I know calls him Qin Hui.

[Yun]

Read my 6 May post on this thread: http://www.chinahist...topic=295&st=30

Basically, one word in answer to your question. Tumu.

[hansioux]

It just means "Doesn't need to have one".

[General_Zhaoyun]

"Mo Xu You 莫须有 " generally means "there probably is" or "there probably isn't" ("或许有"又"或许没有")

Yun said:

BTW, can someone confirm whether 秦桧 is Qin Kui, Qin Gui, Qin Kuai, or Qin Hui? I've seen it pronounced in all sorts of ways.

I think, the pronunciation should be "Qin Kui", at least that's what I hear from watching most drama series about Song and Yuefei.

[Yun]

So "Mo Xu You 莫须有" seems to be something like "maybe, maybe not - who cares?"

Quote

I think, the pronunciation should be "Qin Kui", at least that's what I hear from watching most drama series about Song and Yuefei.

My Chinese dictionary says that 桧 is pronounced 'gui' when referring to the juniper tree, but 'hui' when used for names. So it should be Qin Hui. Shows that television should not be taken as an authority.

[Yue Fei]

Ah... did someone call?

[snowybeagle]

Yue Fei, on Jun 10 2005, 02:11 AM, said:

Ah... did someone call? 

Yeah, why on earth, after the examples of people like Zu Ti, did you not set up precautions or simply denounce the recall order as the plots of traitors?

[ahbian]

some interesting news. apparently, the local gov in jiangxi erected statues of qin hui/kui and 4 other 'evil officials', shown kneeling in front of the tomb belonging to yue fei's mum. this in turn, pissed off the self proclaimed still remaining descendent of qin, saying that his ancestor had already kneeled in front of yue fei for hundreds of years, why does he have to kneel again in front of yue's mum, who died before her son was killed? heh.






photos from http://news.sina.com...66123123s.shtml

[Yue Fei]

snowybeagle, on Jun 10 2005, 10:37 AM, said:

Yeah, why on earth, after the examples of people like Zu Ti, did you not set up precautions or simply denounce the recall order as the plots of traitors? 

And allow myself to be accused of rebellion?

[snowybeagle]

ahbian, on Jun 11 2005, 01:48 PM, said:

why does he have to kneel again in front of yue's mum, who died before her son was killed? heh.

Actually, I thought they should make a statue of Emperor Gaozong of Song to kneel in apology ...

[snowybeagle]

Yue Fei, on Jun 14 2005, 12:47 PM, said:

And allow myself to be accused of rebellion? 

精忠报国 / 精忠報國 jīng zhōng bào gúo,

NOT 精忠报君 jīng zhōng bào jūn

Death, can be light as a swan's feather, or as heavy as Mount Tai.

It was a given who benefitted from your death.

Would your example be an inspiration for capable men to serve the emperor and risk their lives to fight the invaders?

Or would it alienate the patriots and question the worth of solidarity?