[Ogasawara]

I am hoping for some confirmation on Qing dynasty emperor reign numbers. Specifically, is it correct to say that Yongzheng Emperor was the 3rd Qing Empeor, Qianlong the 4th Qing emperor and Puyi the 10th, or last Qing Emperor. I am translating a document from the Japanese that has the numbers as 5th, 6th and 12th-- and those appear to be the correct way for figuring it in Japanese, but I cannot seem to get a straight answer for the English (though I believe it is accurate to state it as I did above as 3rd, 4th and 10th....)

I would be very grateful for some serious enlightenment on this issue.

All the best!

Ogasawara

[tianzhuwoye]

Hello there Ogasawara,

Depends on when you're starting from- the system you've got has Shunzhi as the first emperor, starting from when the Qing entered Beijing. If you're going from the founding of the Qing state, his father Huangtaiji would be number 1, Shunzhi 2, Kangxi 3, Yongzheng 4.... But usually, here in the PRC at least, we'd start counting with Huangtaiji's father Nurhaci, who founded the Later Jin state that was later renamed 'Qing'- giving a grand total of 12 Qing Emperors. Yongzheng is 5th if you're staring from Nurhaci. It's basically a question of semantics but there's often some politics involved, I guess.

Okay, that was way too mushy. Here's a list:
1. Nurhaci- founds the Later Jin State. Usually included as number one since he laid out all the groundwork- most importantly by creating the 8 banner system. Clueless that the empire would be called 'Qing' but its political institutions are basically his.
2. Huangtaiji- Changes 'Jin' to 'Qing-' but it's still the same state his father established.
3. Shunzhi- Emperor when the Qing entered Beijing. He's the first emperor after the actual fall of the Ming. This correlates with the 1644 date usually given as the beginning of the 'dynasty.' Confusion results when you're aiming for continuity throughout the Chinese historical experience and not factoring in how the Qing got into the picture, and that they were a fully functioning state before they hit the big time.
4. Kangxi
5. Yongzheng
6. Qianlong
7. Jiaqing
8. Daoguang
9. Xianfeng
10. Tongzhi
11. Guangxu
12. Hank Puyi

[Ogasawara]

Thank you very much, Mr. tianzhuwoye, for taking the time to help answer my question. Your answer went with what my origianl Japanese document had so everyone was quite satisfied that Yongzhen is #5 and Qialong is #6. I have a ton of Chinese art history books-- many published in the US and many in the PR-- and I was surprsied how all over the place the reign numbers seemed. Even Encyclopedia Britannica had this:

Pinyin Yongzheng (reign name), personal name (Wade-Giles) Yin-chen, temple name (Ch'ing) Shih-tsung, posthumous name, or shih, Hsien-ti **the third emperor (reigned 1722–35) of the Ch'ing dynasty** during whose rule the administration was consolidated and power became concentrated in the emperor's hands

Anyway, I was very happy to go with your advice. Thank you again. I hate to take up bandwidth, and I know this is not really directly related to Qing history but I was wondering if anyone knew the common english name for those huge red corridor-like walls in the Forbidden City called Dongtongzi behind which "the queens and royal concubines lived." I am hoping that the dongtongzi is correct but don't get much hits on google....

Thank you again,

Yours,
Ogasawara

tianzhuwoye, on May 9 2005, 12:52 AM, said:

Hello there Ogasawara,

Depends on when you're starting from- the system you've got has Shunzhi as the first emperor, starting from when the Qing entered Beijing. If you're going from the founding of the Qing state, his father Huangtaiji would be number 1, Shunzhi 2, Kangxi 3, Yongzheng 4.... But usually, here in the PRC at least, we'd start counting with Huangtaiji's father Nurhaci, who founded the Later Jin state that was later renamed 'Qing'- giving a grand total of 12 Qing Emperors. Yongzheng is 5th if you're staring from Nurhaci. It's basically a question of semantics but there's often some politics involved, I guess.

Okay, that was way too mushy. Here's a list:
1. Nurhaci- founds the Later Jin State. Usually included as number one since he laid out all the groundwork- most importantly by creating the 8 banner system. Clueless that the empire would be called 'Qing' but its political institutions are basically his.
2. Huangtaiji- Changes 'Jin' to 'Qing-' but it's still the same state his father established.
3. Shunzhi- Emperor when the Qing entered Beijing. He's the first emperor after the actual fall of the Ming. This correlates with the 1644 date usually given as the beginning of the 'dynasty.' Confusion results when you're aiming for continuity throughout the Chinese historical experience and not factoring in how the Qing got into the picture, and that they were a fully functioning state before they hit the big time.
4. Kangxi
5. Yongzheng
6. Qianlong
7. Jiaqing
8. Daoguang
9. Xianfeng
10. Tongzhi
11. Guangxu
12. Hank Puyi