[Situ Hutu]

Anyone have ideas on specific battles in China's ancient history where one army's comparatively advanced technology gave them the decisive edge over their enemy?

I know that's a broad question... maybe even so broad as to be a fairly stupid one, I'll admit. But if there are some reasonably good examples that spring immediately to mind, I'd like to know so I can do some further research.

I'm trying to come up with a reasonably well-fleshed out (but by no means comprehensive) list of battles, specific examples of advanced weapons, and anecdotes of how the technology was used to make a difference.

I'm just starting out on my research, so any help would be appreciated...!

[Liang Jieming]

Just off the top of my head (though I can't say definitively, you'll have to get someone like Yun to help)...

Warring States Qin had iron weapons vs. mainly bronze weapons
Song dynasty had cannon vs. early mongols
Mongols had Persian counterweight trebs. vs. Song

[Situ Hutu]

Thanks... that's a good start to focus my mind a bit more.

[thirdgumi]

Well, during Ming dynasty, when Nurhachi sieged the city of Ning Yuan, the Ming general Yuan Chong Huan used Portuguese cannons and wounded Nurhachi, thus ending the siege. Nurhachi later died from the wound.
During early Han dynasty, the Han army got better iron than Xiong Nu, there was even forbidden for Han people to export iron to Xiong Nu, some thing like today's US arms embargo.

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Warring States Qin had iron weapons vs. mainly bronze weapons

Actualy, Qin weapons were mainly bronze as proved by the excavations from terracotta army.

[Liang Jieming]

Yeah the Qin army was still mostly a bronze age army but I believe they were one of the first to start using iron widely in their weapons to give them an edge of their rivals.

[RollingWave]

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Warring States Qin had iron weapons vs. mainly bronze weapons
Song dynasty had cannon vs. early mongols
Mongols had Persian counterweight trebs. vs. Song

Unless i'm mistaken...
Archeological evidance suggest that Qin was acturally more behind in terms of metallury than the other states, in fact, Yian and Wu/Yue were the most famous kingdoms for using fine weapons. however, early iron was not neccesarily "better" than bronze depend on how you look at it.

I believe Song did not have gun powder cannons... at least not metalic caste once, we know Song had the world's earliest form of a gun, but there seem to be not enough evidenace to suggest that they taken it to a bigger scale.

The counterweight treb was somewhat like the turkish cannon... in the sense that it only sped up the inevitable.... it wasn't really a "battle changing" technology. the Mongol far far outnumbered the Xian Yang garrison while the Song court had kept delaying any real reinforcement.

I think that until the more modern times technology is very rarely a "decisive" factor, espically when it's queit hard to measure what really is more "advanced"

[Liang Jieming]

hehehehe, you're probably right. I don't really know for sure though they were factors whether decisive or not.

[Yun]

How about this battle during the Mongol invasion of the Jin (Jurchen)? It was a spectacular defeat of more than 3,500 Mongol troops by 450 Jin troops using fire-lances (a spear with a flamethrower tied near its spearhead). It didn't change the outcome of the war, because the Jin were already doomed by then. But it probably motivated the Mongols to adopt gunpowder technology too, and within 100 years they had developed cannons. The Jurchen had already been using fire-lances (they were an improved version called the 'flying fire-lance' that could project flames over a distance of ten paces) and 'thundercrash bombs' during the Mongol sieges of Hezhong and Kaifeng in 1231-1232, and it was said that these were the only two weapons the Mongols were afraid of.

In 1233, after Wanyan Shouxu (the Jin emperor Aizong) had abandoned Kaifeng and failed to raise a new army for himself in Hebei, he returned to Henan and established his base in Gui'de 归德 (present-day Anyang). Scattered Jin armies began to gather at Gui'de from the surrounding region and Hebei, and the supplies in the city could no longer feed all these soldiers. Thus Wanyan Shouxu left only 450 Han Chinese troops (Zhongxiao Jun 忠孝军) under Commander in Chief Pucha Guannu 蒲察官奴 and 280 men under Commander Ma Yong 马用 to guard the city, and dispersed the rest of the troops to forage in Su 宿 (in Anhui), Xu 徐 (modern Xuzhou in Jiangsu), and Chen 陈 (modern Huaiyang in Henan).

Pucha Guannu then launched a coup with his troops, killing Ma Yong and more than 300 other courtiers, as well as about 3,000 officers, palace guards and civilians who refused to cooperate with him. He made the emperor his puppet and became the real master of the imperial court. At this point the Mongols had arrived outside Gui'de and were preparing to besiege the city. The Mongol general Sajisibuhua 撒吉思卜华 had set up camp north of the city, on the bank of a river. Guannu then led his 450 troops out on boats from the southern gate at night, armed with fire-lances (huoqiang 火枪). They rowed along the river by the eastern side of the city, reaching the Mongol camp early in the morning. Wanyan Shouxu watched the battle from the northern gate of the city, with his imperial boat prepared for him to flee to Xuzhou if the Jin troops were defeated.

The Jin troops assaulted the Mongol camp from two directions, using their fire-lances to throw the Mongols into a panic. More than 3,500 Mongols drowned in the river while trying to flee, and the Mongol stockades were all burned to the ground. Sajisibuhua was also killed in the battle. Guannu had achieved a remarkable victory and was promoted by the emperor (who after all was under his control). But Gui'de was not defensible in the long term, and the other courtiers urged the emperor to move to Caizhou, which had stronger walls and more provisions and troops. Pucha Guannu opposed the move, afraid that his power base would be weakened and arguing that Caizhou's advantages had been overstated.

Three months later, Wanyan Shouxu used a plot to assassinate Guannu, and then quickly began preparations to move to Caizhou. By the time new reports reached him that Caizhou was still too weak in defences, troops and supplies, he was already on the way there. The fate of the Jin dynasty was then sealed for good, despite the earlier victory against great odds at Gui'de.

Actually the Jurchen were not the first to use fire-lances - the Song had used them to repel the Jurchen siege of De'an in 1132 (100 years before Gui'de), and the Jurchen had then adopted fire-lances too.

So we have this timeline of gunpowder weapons:
1132 - first recorded use of fire-lances by Song against Jurchen at De'an
1233 - huge success by Jurchen using fire-lances against Mongols at Gui'de
1332 - earliest known Yuan dynasty cannon

Regarding the first Chinese fire-arms, and the first fire-lances (perhaps as early as 950), see: http://www.chinahist...wtopic=422&st=0

[TMPikachu]

Didn't a Han general say "Barbarians of all directions fear the crossbow" ?

I figure that's a statement of a technological edge.

[Situ Hutu]

Certainly the use of firelances in the Mongol/Jurchen encounter Yun so eloquently describes are an excellent example of what I'm looking for, but I also agree with TMPikachu that a crossbow represents a distinct technological advantage.

I guess that it all comes down to how you define "technology" ... better metallurgical skills have to count as better technology (iron vs. bronze, bronze vs. stone), but improved mechanisation (crossbows) also has to be a factor. From a naval perspective, hull design counts, as do sail shape and rigging... for cavalry, technology could mean stirrups and tack. Obviously, seige engines, gunpowder and rocketry are all definitely examples... and their use in battle against an enemy who has not reached a similar level of technological sophistication would logically provide a distinct advantage. (Not neccesarily insurmountable, but in theory, distinctly advantageous.)

Part of it is also down to tactics, though... which is I guess really what I'm looking for. Rather than the strategic advantages of technology in a general sense, I'm really trying to find specific instances of the tactical advantage of better technology as demonstrated in individual battles or campaigns.

Thanks for all the input... I look forward to further discussion on this.

[Liang Jieming]

The use of batteries of traction trebuchets was key in the campaign against Korea in A.D. 668 where the capital fell in the same year.

[CARDINAL009]

Technology is a tool.

Deciding the ["ideal"] time & place is the key. That's the job of the Desktop Generals.

Using it @ the ["right"] time & place is the focus of the Field Generals.

[HaSY]

The use of early land mine by General Qi Jiguang against Mongol cavalry

[Liang Jieming]

HaSY, on May 16 2005, 09:29 PM, said:

The use of early land mine by General Qi Jiguang against Mongol cavalry

Ah good one.

[TMPikachu]

how did this early land mine work?

and with the fire lances.. are they thrown or self propelled? or is it more like a flame thrower?
Are they infantry used, how are they lit, do soldiers carry multiple lances?

Is most of the damage from shock ('holy c**p it's fire!')? I imagine the actual flames wouldn't be like, well, napalm or anything.