[AhMan]

People wrote that Hongshan culture can be linked to the myth about HuangDi. So the first Chinese came not from HuaXia but from Neimenggu instead.
What do you think?
Any connection between the jade age in Liangzhu culture and Hongshan culture?

[浪淘音]

AhMan, on May 9 2005, 03:36 PM, said:

People wrote that Hongshan culture can be linked to the myth about HuangDi. So the first Chinese came not from HuaXia but from Neimenggu instead.
What do you think?
Any connection between the jade age in Liangzhu culture and Hongshan culture?

HuaXia isn't a place. its a term invented in the Eastern Zhou dynasty to designate people who claim lineage to the Sandai IE Xia, Shang and Western Zhou

back in neolithic times, there was no territorial concept to divide the central plains and inner mongolia since they are right on top of each other

the Hongshan culture's location has absolutely no implications whatsoever.

nice attempt to try to sound controversial

[AhMan]

there are articles about relation between HongShan culture and Yellow Emperor. The battle between Yellow emperor and ChiYou took place at Julu in Hebei. This suits the location of Yellow emperor tribe, which were in inner mongolia.

[Kenneth]

Hong Shan culture is not the earliest civilisation in China BY any definition you care to give it. Hong Shan is a middle-late neolithic society than includes the Eastern coast of Northern China...Shandong and inner Mongolia IIRC.
It is a typical Neolithic culture with social stratification, theorised goddess worship, jade working (includign Zhuolng and plaques as typical), some agriculture & domestication....coarse ceramic/pottery etc.

Just why it has anything to do with the mythical Yellow Emperor is beyond me and not explianed by you.
Probably the greater comparible culture (note, not a civilisation) as ancestors of the early dynasties would be Liangzhu which has a more complex jade workigng culture and along with the neolitihc Longshan has direct compirisons in bronze from pottery prototypes and jade workign of the later Shang (such as vessel shapes and jade Bi & Tsong jade ritual vessell).
Hong Shan is percieved as rather more marginal to the central plains history...and isnt especially more remarkable compared to other jade working cultures at other times and localities of China.

It is not even the earliest..as Banpo from around 5,000 bc represents the earliest well-known neolithic settlement of Yangshao culture and pre-dates Hong SHan by a considerable period.

[AhMan]

I post the link here:
http://www.ufoarea.c...de_dragons.html
What i find logical in this article is that the location of the battle of Julu, which is in Hebei, suits the supposedly geographical position of Yellow Emperor tribe. If Yellow Emperor lived in Henan then why would ChiYou and Huangdi be bothered to go up north and fought the battle there.
And where does it say that Liangzhu jade is superior to Hongshan?

[Kenneth]

I didnt say Liangzhu jade is 'superior' (as that could mean either the large grain tremolite nephrite itself or the 'art')

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Probably the greater comparible culture (note, not a civilisation) as ancestors of the early dynasties would be Liangzhu which has a more complex jade workigng culture

...and directly influences the art of later dynasties in a way Hong Shan doesnt.

There are techniques of jade working the Liangzhu used that aren't represented in Hong Shan, which is powerful and beautiful too but not as technical to recreate.
Liangzhu jade has turned up in much greater numbers, sometimes dozens in one grave alone(compared to 22 jade items within over 100 graves in a famous Hong Shan site).
The Liangzhu worked ritual Bi discs in jade with a central drill hole was a form copied from SHang to Ming. The most amazing jades of the time were the Liangzhu Tsong or COng which were the square tubes with a circular central hole...some being over 40cm high IIRC. The technical production of these in a culture before metal is actually beyond me and I hope to research the construction method shortly as they couldn't have used the metal coring tools of the ZHou era or SHang. ANd yet Tsong are very geometric and complex.
The quality of incised Liangzhu carving does vary however, from poor to excellent but in terms of technical reproduction they must have had jade sawing tools and coring devices of types the Hong Shan didnt require to make netsuke stlye belt jades (Zhulong) or 'cloud' plaques. (still beautiful though mind you!)
I am not putting down Hong SHan however...but Liangzhu is one of the most commonly displayed neolithic images of jade you will see if you look at texts on ancient Chinese jade and is a jade culture of the first degree.
Hope that explains a little.....

[Kenneth]

pls note the link above is a UFO conspiracy & ancient astronaut site and the geographic location of Hong Shan and a culture hero legend of the Yellow Emperor does not require viewing these two as the same thing.
The is very little substance in why they link the two in the article and a lot of it is taken from comments of Gui Dashun a well known Chijnese archeologist who doesnt say anything that supports the articel itself.
The interpretation of Zhulong as Bears is news to me, as it is most commonly called a pig-dragon or baby dragon, so any bear worship theory is their own.

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bear-dragons unearthed in recent years that have provided the first hard archaeological evidence to add credence to the much-told story of Huangdi.

''''coincides with the historical account of Huangdi being known as Youxiong (Keeper of bears). ''''
Just how the Zhulong are evidence of Huangdi I dont understand.



A little off track but relevant to the second part of the article

PS Guo Dashuns comments about the 'jade age' are at ods with the evidence he supplies on his dig anyway. I have respect for Guo but the comments onthe 'jade age' are much hyped and only reported in newspapers unhelpfully.
The site he dug had the 100 or more graves I mentioned, and it had only 22 jade items which Guo called clear evidence of class/social stratification.
It hardly counts as an age between bronze anbd stone when they were only symbols of status worn by a few, and not tools or affecting aspects of life beyond art or ritual. The rest of Hong Shan is entirely comparible to neolithic culture as I outlined above and so 'jade age' is hardly consistent with Guos own evidence of the dig. They were rare objects for a lucky few and life was not revolutanised by jade pendants in the way the discovery of metal did.

[Kenneth]

this might be relevant
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4271

almost the same topic as another thread, and with a strange explanation for the idea of HuangDi & Hong Shan.

There isnt an obvious connection btwn Hong Shan & Liangzhu that I am aware of as they are quite distinct and in different regions. They could be roughly contemporary as each phase lasted for centuries, but there hasnt been any suggestion of influencing each other to my knowledge (in styles of their material culture for instance).
Other cultures from those times are clearly linked and follow one another but Hong Shan doesnt seem to have left an impression on the central plains early dynasties in the same way LongShan or Liangzhu culture did.

Here are some examples of Tsong and Bi of jade, although only the Tsong Tube, and perhaps the lower plaque is Liangzhu..the other 2 being early dynasty Bi which are a form that was taken from the Liangzhu and made even through to the Ching.

[shunyadragon]

Kenneth, on May 11 2005, 07:45 AM, said:

Hong Shan culture is not the earliest civilisation in China BY any definition you care to give it. Hong Shan is a middle-late neolithic society than includes the Eastern coast of Northern China...Shandong and inner Mongolia IIRC.
It is a typical Neolithic culture with social stratification, theorised goddess worship, jade working (includign Zhuolng and plaques as typical), some agriculture & domestication....coarse ceramic/pottery etc.

Just why it has anything to do with the mythical Yellow Emperor is beyond me and not explianed by you.
Probably the greater comparible culture (note, not a civilisation) as ancestors of the early dynasties would be Liangzhu which has a more complex jade workigng culture and along with the neolitihc Longshan has direct compirisons in bronze from pottery prototypes and jade workign of the later Shang (such as vessel shapes and jade Bi & Tsong jade ritual vessell).
Hong Shan is percieved as rather more marginal to the central plains history...and isnt especially more remarkable compared to other jade working cultures at other times and localities of China.

It is not even the earliest..as Banpo from around 5,000 bc represents the earliest well-known neolithic settlement of Yangshao culture and pre-dates Hong SHan by a considerable period.

Based on the quality and quantity of ceremonial and ritual jade and jade-like stone carvings, the cultures of the Hemudu, Dawenkou, Shandong Longshan leading to the Liangzhu cutures beginning ~ 5000 BC or earlier were much more advanced than the Hongshan or the Banpo cultures. The earliest widespread use of nephrite jade for ceremonial and ritual carvings were from these cultures and the primary earliest source was near Suzhou in Jiangsu Province, which is now virtually mined out. The foundation of the most important nephrite jade carving industry is in the Suzhou, Hangzhou, Nanjing region. The volume and quality of nephrite jade carvings from this region makes it the the most likely source of Chinese civilization.

I do not consider the Hongshan or Banpo as significant in terms of origins of Chinese culture or civilization.

There are some interesting charactoristics the Hongshan culture has in common with their southern cousins. One is the importance of the pig, and the use of pairs of pig, pig dragon or dragon carvings in burial. The bi was also common in Hongshan, but the carvings were relatively primative and almost all were in the softer local jade-like stone called Bowenite, locally called xuyu. The Banpo had very few jade carvings and nothing much else that would be significant to contribute to the origins of Chinese culture.

One interesting side-note is the earliest known nephrite jade carvings are from the northeast region with two possible known sources of nephrite jade being a very limited source near Haicheng in Liaoning and the northeast corner of Heilongjiang Province.

This post has been edited by shunyadragon: 20 November 2005 - 10:16 AM

[shunyadragon]

AhMan, on May 11 2005, 01:27 PM, said:

I post the link here:
http://www.ufoarea.c...de_dragons.html
What i find logical in this article is that the location of the battle of Julu, which is in Hebei, suits the supposedly geographical position of Yellow Emperor tribe. If Yellow Emperor lived in Henan then why would ChiYou and Huangdi be bothered to go up north and fought the battle there.
And where does it say that Liangzhu jade is superior to Hongshan?

I took a peak at the article, but found little of substance. One point is clear the carvings are not 'bear dragons', but fetal pig carvings called 'pig dragons', which fits much better with the cultural link in all of eastern China where the pig was the most important animal and carvings of pairs of pigs, pig dragons and dragons are common in burial rituals up through the Han Dynasty and later. In the Han tended to revert back to jade carvings of pigs. Head rests became popular too with a pig, pig dragon or dragon head at each end. The carvings tended to have very pig-like charactoristics like blunt noses, mains and even tusks on many carvings.

[DearCoolZ]

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I agree with you. Yellow King's civilization is related to He Bei area and not Inner Mongolia.

its yellow emperor,not yellow king

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In another example, ancient Koreans (Koguryo) claimed Sui Ren clan as their ancestors and worshiped him as their god of the clan, whereas Chinese did not.

uh???? The ancient koreans worshipped dan gun as their ancestors.

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Further, Chinese come from much south, from south of (and north-west of) Central Plain. However, Hong Shan culture is located in the North-East.

go back a few millions ago, the chinese came from much much much south, in africa. the point is that people moves, they don't just stay in one place. how do you know that the chinese didn't come from somewhere else before moved to huanghe area?

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The Mongols, Koreans and Tungus originate from Hong Shan culture areas or areas close to that. This area remained outside of Chinese reach until Han dynasty and was considered Non-Chinese areas as late as modern time.

really? i can't seem to find any articles that says koreans came from hongshan culture.

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The oldest dragon totem, jade culture, Siberian-style shamanism of Hong Shan culture all indicate its Non-Chinese, North-Eastern ethnic ties.

dragon totem and jade culture are all a big part of Chinese culture.

[DaMo]

DearCoolZ, on May 12 2006, 08:00 PM, said:

its yellow emperor,not yellow king

Wouldn't di4 literally translate to "Lord"?

[DearCoolZ]

DaMo, on May 12 2006, 02:19 PM, said:

Wouldn't di4 literally translate to "Lord"?

no,帝is used in diguo(empire),dizhu(landowner),diwang(great emperor),huangdi(emperor)